[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Mister Agent]

Just mulling where I want to bring White Threshold, post Lorywn...

Teeg is in serious need of testing, ditto for Ponder. Here's what I have as of today, not knowing the full Lorwyn spoiler:

Post-Lowryn Threshold*

4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Note
3 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard
3 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast
3 Chill
3 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Gaddock Teeg

For those of you who would sooner play Pale Moon than Mental Note, pretend I said those slots were Predict.

Other changes: Flirting with maindeck Counter-Top, which slows down the deck some, but is so damn annoying and pure murder in the mirror. To make room, I dropped the Meddling Magi and added a couple of Teegs. I've been meaning to test B2B in the sideboard for sometime now, and seeing Machinus' article from last week when he squeezed in Blood Mood to Red-Splash Thresh convinced me to give it a shot. It's easier to pull off against opposing decks than Geddon and is a complete and utter bummer to BHWC Landstill and a few other non-basic heavy control and aggro-control decks. Given my eight fetchland, 4 basi configuration, it shouldn't be any problem.

Thoughts?

I actually like the back to basics idea better then blood moons. Since I think if you have blood moon in play there is no way you can fetch for any basic land considering your fetch lands will be mountains as well I could be wrong though. In this sense I think back to basics is a much safer bet and less of a hassle in my opinion. On the seperate note though I really like your list bardo it seems to have alot of flavor in it.

[zulander]

-1 mental note + 1 ponder. The deck doesn't rely as much on threshold like it used to when it ran where?bears.

[Volt]

Thoughts?

Of course, the obvious thing is your choice of Mental Note over Predict. Predict is really, really good when combined with the CounterTop engine.

White Thresh with maindeck CounterTop is really good. One gripe I have, though, is that it can be very slow, leading to a lot of long matches.

[from Cairo]

Of course, the obvious thing is your choice of Mental Note over Predict. Predict is really, really good when combined with the CounterTop engine.

Agreed. Ponder also seems strictly better than Mental Note.

Is Gaddock worth MD space? Counterbalance is almost equally huge against combo and doesn't shut off Force of Will.

I like the manabase, I was running 8 fetch, 3 Trop / 3 Tundra, 2 Island, 1 Forest and was really pleased with it. I might agree with adding the Plains if going for Back to Basics, maybe in the board, idk, I can't think of much need for it MD.

I also agree with cutting Enforcer back to a one of in the main board, its such a brick in the early game.

Personally I would probably change:

-3 Mental Note
-2 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Plains

+3 Predict
+3 Portent
+1 Counterbalance

[Citrus-God]

White Thresh with maindeck CounterTop is really good. One gripe I have, though, is that it can be very slow, leading to a lot of long matches.

I never had many problems with Counterbalance being slow... but that may be because Tarmogoyfs are amazingly fast when you want to shift towards beatdown mode...

Ways to play Beatdown with Counterbalance active is to use the BBS philosophy... Throw your threats out there and counter like crazy. Thresh is the new BSS, you should be playing the same way somewhat.

[Forty]

I am not sure if Gaddock Teeg will work in this deck, since it shuts off Fow. On the other hand, Ponder seems better than Serum visions :)

I'm having trouble deciding how many creatures to put in my version of the deck. I've tested without Mystic Enforcers and I feel that I need more creatures. Why not using both Tarmogoyf AND werebear? (4 mongoose, 4 tarmogoyf, 3 werebear, for example).

Another card discussion is Control magic vs threads vs shackles. Personally I like shackes the most, but I'm not sure when to use this type of cards.
In which matchups are they worth playing? MD or SB?

[Citrus-God]

Another card discussion is Control magic vs threads vs shackles. Personally I like shackes the most, but I'm not sure when to use this type of cards.
In which matchups are they worth playing? MD or SB?

Shackles is decent against Goblins.... the other two is only good against Aggro Control mirrors...

Creature Steal is only good against Aggro Control mirrors most of the time.

[b4r0n]

This thread has been quiet for a while. I have a couple questions; maybe they'll spark a little discussion.

So it seems that people are moving towards Counterbalance in the maindeck. What do you think is the right number, 3 or 4? How many cantrips, and how many Tops, are required to support Counterbalance? Also, does running Top affect the number of fetches that you run?

If you're running Counterbalance in the maindeck, how do you board for the mirror? Do you preemptively board in the Grips (or is that only for combatting the red splash, which can bring in Control Magic), or do you run Spell Snares? Any other good tech?

For those that are testing Teeg, how has he been?

[Citrus-God]

So it seems that people are moving towards Counterbalance in the maindeck. What do you think is the right number, 3 or 4? How many cantrips, and how many Tops, are required to support Counterbalance? Also, does running Top affect the number of fetches that you run?

I tend to run 7 fetches, regardless of the number of Tops I run. Tops are great with lots of fetchlands, but it seems that 7-8 should be the right number.

As for how many Tops needed to support Counterbalance, I think this thinking is just wrong. Tops are good when it comes to drawing and filtering draws, it's so good, you shouldnt even think about cutting them. I do, however, believe that 3 is a great number of Tops to run Maindecked if you run 2-3 Counterbalances. I was never into Counterbalances as much as I was into Tops.

Also, I advise many to run 3 Tops. Top is a great card, and I was never dissapointed in drawing them. If I draw into an extra copy, it'd probably be sitting around to Top for 1 with ease, or just Predict it away.

If you're running Counterbalance in the maindeck, how do you board for the mirror?

Board out Counterspells, a Forest, and sometimes a Daze if they play around it for the 4th Counterbalance, Control Magic, and/or Grips.

Do you preemptively board in the Grips (or is that only for combatting the red splash, which can bring in Control Magic), or do you run Spell Snares? Any other good tech?

I don't run Spell Snares. they suck when it comes to fighting board sweepers and overcosted threats and stuff.

[Forty]

I run 8 fetches, 3 counterbalance, 3 tops.
And about the cantrips, I run 4 brainstorm, 3 ponder, 4 mental note. I am not sure of replacing notes with predicts, even though I run tops, because notes get threshold very fast and my 4 mongoose+2 werebear really appreciate it.

When I started playing with the CounterTop engine, I was surprised of how good the Top is, even if you don't have any Counterbalance in play.

I'll post my current decklist:

Lands - 18
4 tropical island
3 tundra
2 island
1 forest
4 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
1 polluted delta

creatures - 10
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
2 werebear

other spells - 32
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 mental note
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
2 pithing needle
2 vedalken shackles // I'm doubtful of this spot. Can't think of a card to send shackles to de SB. Why not the 4th ponder+ a mystic enforcer?


Sideboard - 15
3 hydroblast
3 tormod's crypt
3 meddling mage
2 krosan grip
2 engineered explosives
2 hail storm

[Maveric78f]

Mind harness is too strong to be played ? It deals with lackey and with tarmogoyf. It's one of the most powerful metagame tech with perish (that you can't afford).

[godryk]

I've included some copies of Mind Harness in the SB and seems pretty good, much cheaper to play than Threads of Disloyalty or Control Magic and if you have 4 mana to play it, then it is 4 turns you own the opponents 'goyf. Anyway, I like it because very often I just need to get the opponent's 'Goyf/Enforcerout out of my creatures way to swing for lethal.

[Citrus-God]

I've included some copies of Mind Harness in the SB and seems pretty good, much cheaper to play than Threads of Disloyalty or Control Magic and if you have 4 mana to play it, then it is 4 turns you own the opponents 'goyf. Anyway, I like it because very often I just need to get the opponent's 'Goyf/Enforcerout out of my creatures way to swing for lethal.

This is true, but if you're playing a more slower version of Threshold, it may be better to play Control Magic/Threads o Disloyalty, since it has a more long term game.

[Kyachi]

I'm big on Shackles. As far as the whole control magic/thread/shackles discussion, there are a few things that I would consider.

Cost- Both Threads and Shackles cost 3, which seems to be a relatively stupid argument, except when you consider the lack of 3 drops in the deck. When you've got your own counterbalance down and are looking to do something to Aluren, for example, Krosan Grip is a quite a bit better than an equal spell that costs 2, because it gets Familiars and Man o' wars. The point is that they can be boarded in against a spell that might be better to help "chalice" at 3. Also, they skate by other Counterbalances more easily than something that costs 4, as there are Mystic Enforcers in the world. Also, comes down earlier.

Versatility- Both Shackles and Control Magic are usable against everything that isn't a Goblin Piledriver, for the most part. Threads is only usable against a limited number of targets, but very good targets nonetheless.

Pithing Needle- I can't think of another heading for this. Obviously Pithing Needle shuts down Shackles if it isn't currently doing anything good.

Staying Power- All of these die to Disenchant effects, but one is reusable.



On the number of tops, I believe that 3/3 is the right amount of tops/counterbalance. You seldom find yourself having to deal with redundancy, extra counterbalances are Force fodder, and top is easily shuffled away. I run 7 Fetches, but if you wanted to, I'm sure that 8 is a passable number as well.

[Anarky87]

After running the black splash this weekend, I'd have to say that Shackles were just a beating against everything. From Goblins to Fish to Thresh, there was never a bad moment for Shackles.

And Spell Snare was awesome as well. I didn't care about board sweepers, because that's what the other 11 counters in my deck were for. Snare tools the mirror and pretty much the format right now.

[Sigar]

Shackles doesn't pitch to fow, can be needled, stifled, and cost 5 to get going, I prefer threads, even though it "only" steals one critter.

[Kyachi]

Well, no one needles shackles before it hits the board, and needle isn't even really all that great in the mirror anyways, I usually board at least one to two of them out in the second and third games, especially if I don't see Top. The Fow argument is valid, but unneeded, you have plenty of blue stuff to pitch, and cantrips are always better than cards you've boarded in...

[Sigar]

So the fact it can be stifled and costs 5 doesn't matter to you? And the "not needed to pitch to fow" argument doesn't last one bit, you always want as many blue cards to pitch to force as possible.

[Bardo]

So the fact it can be stifled and costs 5 doesn't matter to you? And the "not needed to pitch to fow" argument doesn't last one bit, you always want as many blue cards to pitch to force as possible.

Well, if the Shackles activation is Stifled, you can just activate it again the following turn. As for how many blue cards you need to support FoW, the accepted minimum is 17 cards, though I personally prefer 20. With most Thresh decks running 24 or more blue cards, you can definitely squeeze in other non-blue cards.

So here's what I've been playing lately.

Counter-Top Thresh
by Bardo

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Mental Note
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Hydroblast
3 Chill
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Counterbalance
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

As was mentioned sometime way back, this deck is noticeably slower than the non-CounterTop versions and it occured to my why that is; neither Divining Top or Counterbalance do anything when you play them. When you Counterspell something, that spell goes to the graveyard, when you Brainstorm, you draw cards. When you play Top, you get nothing right away, when you spin it, you get nothing. When you commit to a mainphase Counterbalance, again, it does nothing when you play it. Both trade the immediacy of an effect for long-term gain.

I'm wondering if I should just move the whole package into the sideboard, but I'll test it maindeck for another week or so.

Also Ponder is fun. It's cool to have a new draw spell to play with.

[diffy]

There's no reason not to play mainboard CounterTop at the moment... yes it slows down the deck, but then again, if you resolve a Counterbalance, you'll probably win right there on the spot. It's that simple. With mana curves getting lower and lower to adapt to fast threats (Tarmogoyf) and combo, Counterbalance becomes more and more of a Juggernaut.
If you manage to get down a Counterbalance, your gameplan changes from being an Aggro deck with controlish elements to being the control/lock deck that goes beatdown with undercosted critters... and it works. If you manage to hold up the 'lock' long enough, it doesn't really matter with what you are going onto the offensive, but you'd rather play the most undercosted critters in the game just in case you have to drop your defenses (you miss one cmc in your top3 cards) or in case your Counterbalance gets handeled/you don't draw one.

This is the list I've been playing with small changes since ages and which has been godlike to me since exactly that long.

// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (17)
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures (10)
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Mystic Enforcer

// Spells (33)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Predict
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Daze
    3 Counterbalance
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard (15 cards)
    1 Counterbalance
    4 Hydroblast
    1 Ravages of War
    1 Armageddon
    3 Krosan Grip
    2 Jotun Grunt
    3 Gaddock Teeg

Predicts are there to create the much needed card advantage (you don't have any except for virtual card advantage via cantrips and Counterbalance) and to fill the grave for Nimble Mongoose... I'd never, never replace them with anything else such as Mental Note as they are just too synergestic and basically always draw you 2 cards. Also, they interact brilliantly with Counterbalance.

9 Fetchies and only 8 targets are there to thin the library to a maximum to reduce late game land draws (I tend to always be flooded with this build) and to provide additional shuffle effects for Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top.

3 Mainboard Pithing Needles are there for general awesomeness against the entire format. These are essential against Vial Goblins, Landstill and many others. In the mirror, these only make excellent Predict targets though, but I'd never leave the house without them.

The 3 basics are another controversial spot, but I like them. I tend to play this deck conservatively and always fetch the basics first against any unknown opponent and the 3 basics assure that I can play everyhing even under Blood Moon, Back to Basics, reccuring Wastelands so that you can just ignore them and use your counters for more serious threats.

On to the sideboard.

The 1 Counterbalance is there to board in against nearly every deck, especially for the mirror. You really need this fourth one as the person who gets his Counterbalance down first will win. Definetely.

The Hydroblasts are for your random Goblin/Burn deck but can also be boarded in against Life from the Loam based decks (Devastating Dreams is bad news). I am not confident in the Goblins matchup without these. Yes I know that Tarmogoyf has changed the dynamics of this Matchup, but the Goblin lists in my meta are very refined and play a lot of disruption postboard (Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize) to get the amazing Pernicious Deed down... so I'd rather have some additional hate/utility in this matchup than to let them play their game and me stay unboarded.

The Ravages of War and the Armageddon are there to win the game against any board control deck, notably Landstill... which is otherwise near to an auto-loss.

Krosan Grip is there for random stuff like Survival of the Fittest but also for the Mirror to take out opposing Counterbalances/Vedalken Shackles.

Jotun Grunt is there to at least have the shimmer of a fighting chance against Ichorid. The matchup is just that bad. It also comes in against control decks and the mirror for an early clock or against other random aggro decks for a blocker/body.

Gaddock Teed is there to be a game winner in the Landstill Matchup as you basically only have to resolve him and to protect him from the 4 removal spells they can now cast (Swords to Plowshares). He is some sort of dissynergetic with Geddon/Ravages, but this hasn't been relevant yet as both cards are the number one targets for your opponent to eliminate so that you want to have as many as possible in order to resolve one.


Also, what is all this debate about Vedalken Shackles/Threats of Disloyalty/Control Magic? The good thing about Vedalken Shackles is that it is re-usable contrary to the other 2 cards. Yes it costs 3+2 to activate it, but whatever, the mirror is dragged out either way, and the person with the more evasive beaters or Tarmogoyfs wins.
Really, if you want to play any of these, play Vedalken Shackles. The one mana more in comparision to Control Magic is worth the re-usability... and Threats of Disloyalty are just plain bad because they only have 4 targets in the mirror (Tarmogoyf) whereas the other 2 options have 6 (+Evasive beater).


Also, could somebody explain me why Spell Snare is that good? I know that it is an undercostet counter, but is it really worth playing situational cards instead of hard counters or permission that ends the game now (Counterbalance)? Also, I hate Spell Snare for being near to useless outside the mirror as it does very little against decks like Landstill which will just pay UWW for their Explosives or 2WW for their Wrath and still clear your board.