First of all, Blue Elemental Blast is probably the most underappreciated card in the universe. I can't tell you how much this improves Goblins, Random Janky Red Aggro (See Dryad Sligh), and any combo match that relies on any form of Red Acceleration. It also stops Blood Moon, which is crucial. (Note I said Blood Moon, not Magus of the Moon, which is janky and retarded and floating white or black for STP or Edict or already having a Deed in play is sufficient to axe that idea.)
Survival is a hard match to pinpoint because depending on the build, it can go anywhere from 70-30 Landstill to 70-30 Survival. Game one, winning is as simple as keeping Survival off the board and keeping Genesis out of their graveyard. In subsequent games, you get tools such as Extirpate, Krosan Grip, and (if you run it) Spell Snare, all of which help drastically here. Crime//Punishment, if you run it, will shine here, allowing you to steal Genesis out of their graveyard and in the event they find a way to kill him, Swords the bugger. RGBSA is not a match worth panicking over. It's no worse than even if skill level is even, and it's highly unlikely you'll see it anything but once or not at all in a given tournament, making metagaming heavily for it a questionable proposition.
Aluren I've never found to be all that bad. Therapy and Force or not, almost every card in your deck is useful against Aluren in some capacity, and they have to resolve Aluren to beat you. Aluren might be able to beat some decks down in a pinch, but it's not going to do it to one with the creature hate capacity of Landstill. I think a lot of the bad results from Aluren are because for some unknown reason nobody ever takes the time to playtest against it and learn what they're up against. I've seen very solid players play like complete idiots against Aluren, and I'm no exception.
Originally Posted by majikal
The Legacy Champs are approaching and maybe I could make my deck a lot better (I know it's pretty same than the other builds posted in here. But here haven't been very much talking going on about Landstill) now that Lorwyn is going to be tournament-legal and all. So here's my list:
2x Eternal Dragon
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Cunning Wish
3x Wrath of God
3x Decree of Justice
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Crucible of Worlds
4x Standstill
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Island
3x Wasteland
2x Underground Sea
2x Plains
1x Scrubland
1x Polluted Delta
SB:
3x Orim's Chant
3x Extirpate
3x Engineered Plague
2x Humility
1x Disenchant
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Stifle
1x Hurkyl's Recall?
I don't know (yet) what the meta is going to be like. I guess combo and control will be more popular than aggro, except that uwb-fish was rather played last year.
I'm most afraid about getting against decks with 8 Duresses, Teeg isn't that bad because he can be swordsed and blown away with explosives.
I have tested a lot against Iggy Pop, and that doesn't seem too bad (or my opponent was poor) with Orim's Chants and Extirpates, and I guess same is true for TES.
I'd definetely cut a Wasteland for a Hallowed Fountain. I've made this change some time ago and I never wanted to go back... Mana development & stability are ust way more important to this deck than the eventual screw... If you don't have Crucible, Wasteland is like hurting yourself more than your opponent most of the time.
-1 Wasteland
+1 Hallowed Fountain
Also, 23 lands is all you need with 2 Eternal Dragons and all that card draw.
-1 Island
+1 Wrath of God
I've found 4 Wrath of Gods to be essential as you always want to draw at the very least one and drawing more never hurts.
First of all, you don't really need the Chants in here... replace them with Meddling Mage as that is actually a clock/must handle and not only a defense for a turn.
-3 Orim's Chant
-1 Stifle (you'll always have better targets as CWish->Stifle is 4 mana for a way too weak effect... You want to wish for bombs)
+4 Meddling Mage
Also, run Dismantling Blow over Disenchant. The mana difference might look like a pain but once you play against CounterBalance Aggro-Control, being able to get rid of their Balance without being interupted (3cc is mostly the weak spot in their manacurve) is really worth it. Also, being able to generate CA is important in Matchups like the mirror.
-1 Disenchant
+1 Dismantling Blow
Hurkyl's Recall is basically the same thing as Stifle... and too conditional in my oppinion. Just run some guaranteed CA in its spot.
-1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Fact or Fiction
Also, I like to play a Removal in the Wishboard and found Humility to be basically worse than a fourth Plague, but that's just me and Marius Hausman basically... call it German prefference. (We like the abbility to have a reliable foil to Combo/Goblins that comes down when it matters over the added versatility of Humility which really only makes a difference in the Survival Matchup which isn't all that bad with Extirpate)
-2 Humility
+1 Ghastly Demise
+1 Engineered Plague
So basically you have made an excellent Metagame choice with Landstill. If you do expect a lot of Uwb Fish (Hanni Fish) definetely do run 4 Eningeered Plagues in the Sideboard though... They kill Dark Condidants and neuter Shadowmage Infiltrators (set on Wizard) and kill Mother of Runes which is rather huge depending on the situation.
You could also try to fit in 2 Vedalken Shackles as they are plain and simply awesome against Fish as they can't attack without loosing a guy with it out and stealing a Dark Confidant is just plain and simply nasty. Also, it gets around Mother of Runes.
I personally find nearly all non Solidarity combo to be a rather good Matchup for Landstill.
Last edited by diffy; 10-13-2007 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Edited for completness
Nihil posted a decklist from a recent Italian tournament that was Landstill-ish. It had 4x Sensei's Divining Top and 4x Counterbalance in the main. I wouldn't play those cards if I were playing Pernicious Deed, but I wonder if there any value in having Counterbalance in the sideboard.
I personally think that this isn't that a good idea, at least not in the 4c or UWb Versions because the CounterTop plan takes up loads of slots in the very tight (if you play the Cunning Wish) sideboard (6-8) and is rather win-more because it makes already excellent matchups (NQG) better.
If you want to play a CounterBalance transformational sideboard, I'd recomend to play Adans Ur Landstill. It can abuse the Mainboard SDTs way better by discarding excess ones to Thirst for Knowledge and it hasn't that a good Aggro-Control Matchup so the addition actually makes sense.
A list would look something like this:
Also, Edited post above.Code:// Lands 3 Faerie Conclave 4 Mishra's Factory 2 Wasteland 1 Academy Ruins 1 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Wooded Foothills 1 Mountain 2 Island 4 Volcanic Island 1 Steam Vents // Spells 4 Force of Will 2 Disrupting Shoal 3 Repeal 4 Brainstorm 4 Standstill 3 Thirst for Knowledge 3 Sensei's Divining Top 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Fire/Ice 2 Nevinyrral's Disk 3 Engineered Explosives 2 Crucible of Worlds // Sideboard 4 Pyroclasm 3 Threads of Disloyalty 3 Blue Elemental Blast 2 Pithing Needle 3 Counterbalance
Hi americans!
I want to share a tech sideboard card to win vs burn!
it's aegis of honor, cost only W, is enchantment with an ability that is GG vs burn!
At the moment I'm playing the UWb build with wishes, but there is a white wishable card that in many case can act like extirpate: honor the fallen.
It's a bomb vs icorid (take away all dredges, gain life, just need to wrath/explosive the board of zombie), and also to take away annoying genesis (i don't see living wish anywhere) that makes recursions.
There so aren't only americans on this site!Hi americans!
I don't really see a problem in the Burn matchup as a Pulse of the Fields generally is a real pain for them... not that they can't win through it, but it usually buys you ages and gives you the time to beat them down so I don't really see the need in having a very narrow card in the Sideboard that's required to be at least a 3 off to be effective.
That's actually quite a nice find... I didn't think of the ability to take away the Dredgers at first but again, this card is rather narrow and the bonus of Extirpate over Honor the Fallen is that it's also usefull in the Combo and Loam matchups where the Honor just sucks.
Normally one might think that a Wishboard is just there for having narrow bombs against certain Matchups, but the board in Landstill is way different. As Cunning Wish is very slow, it is boarded out in quite a large number of Matchups (fast combo, ******** etc) and replaced by the card it would normally fetch. Therefore you need to have a reliable chance of drawing the tutor targets even without the wish.
The reasoning behind this is that Cunning Wish was first of all only added to have access to a single card in the sideboard in the first game: Extirpate against Life from the Loam.
Now the Wishboard has been made a little broader (Ghastly Demise, Pulse of the Fields, Fact or Fiction, Dismantling Blow, Extirpate) but that's partially only to free slots in the main and to make Cunning Wish a less dead card outside of particular Matchups...
You can't really make the wishboard that much bigger because you still actually need the other slots (Meddling Mage, (Humility,) Engineered Plague, additional Extiraptes) or you'll strongly hurt your second and third games against a vast majority of the field.
Question to those of you playing Decree of Justice:
How often do you find yourself using it just as a cantrip earlier game to dig for something more useful at the time?
I find myself doing this quite often. In fact, I side them out almost every game:
Breakfast/Ichorid: (along with the Wishes and Dragons) for 3 Extirpate + 4 Meddling Mage/4 Engineered Plague
Threshold: (along with Wishes) for 3 Extirpate + 1 Ghastly Demise + 1 Fact or Fiction
Goblins: (along with Dragons) for 4 Plague
____________________________________________________________________
Heading home from class...more when I get home
As I absolutely love this card in Landstill, my following points/view might be biased.
I nearly always hold onto Decree of Justice until the last possible moment... the more you wait the better it gets. I often use it in the mid- to late game to kill an attacking guy and leave behind some chump blockers and then in the late game to put a short clock on the opponent.
Even against very fast combo, I'll always keep hold till I can produce a 4-6 turn clock instead of wasting it and 3 (!) mana to draw a single card.
This is true. If you're playing against combo. if not, Decree of Justice is just awsome being an uncounterable removal/wincondition. You do board out some copies though as they are mainly in the Main because of their versatility/usefullness in many matchups.
This is what I'd do (based upon the non-Humility sideboard).
Ichorid
-3 Decree of Justice
-3 Cunning Wish
-2 Eternal Dragon
-1 Standstill
-2 Wrath of God
+3 Extirpate
+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Engineered Plague
Non CounterTop Threshold
-3 Cunning Wish
-2 Decree of Justice (stifle and co)
+1 Ghastly Demise
+1 Fact or Fiction
+3 Extripate
CounterTop ********
-2 Decree of Justice
+2 Extirpate
I'm not set on boarding Extirpate against ******** yet, but it sounds like a good idea seeing their low threat count.
Goblins
-1 Standstill
-1 Decree of Justice
-2 Counterspell
+4 Engineered Plague
From my testing, Extirpate has been pretty good against Thresh. Wasting a Tropical Island then Extirpating it can randomly win the game. Of course, getting rid of half their threats (either Mongeese or Goyfs) also makes the deck more manageable, as it loses a lot of its aggressive power. The only potential problem for Extirpate is that more and more Thresh lists are running Counterbalance, which can be a little tricky to play around.
I noticed that you board Plague against Ichorid. What do you tend to name first? What about subsequent Plagues?
That's why I play Dismantling Blow over Disenchant in the Wishboard... NQG/Balance lists tend to run very few or none at all 3 mana spells so you can basically kill their CounterBalance undisruptedly with the Dismantling Blow.
Stefan Czolk (spiritofthewretch) who just won Iserlohn with Ichorid and I figured out during testing that it's best to straightforwardly name Zombie with the first two Plagues because the recurring hordes are the biggest problem for this deck in that Matchup (if you name Ichorid he'll still get the tokkens, same for Illusion). If you do manage to get rid of the Bridges from Below (Extripate, Waste your Factory) prior to seing a Plague, you'll definetely name Horror (Ichorid) instead though.
So basically this comes down to:
Bridge form Below in deck/graveyard?
----Yes
------>name Zombie, Zombie, Horror, Illusion
----No
------>name Ichorid, Illusion, Imp, Human
What do you name with Meddling Mage? Dread Return? Cabal Therapy?
Do you really leave Standstill in the deck when boarding against Ichorid? I have only played the matchup a few times, but whenever my opponent cast a Standstill (not knowing what I was playing), they had lost on the spot or had to break it themselves a few turns later. Ichorid doesn't need to cast a single spell and can operate much better and faster under Standstill than Landstill.
Of course, it pitches to FoW, but that's the only thing you can use the card for in this matchup. I think I'd much rather have Wrath of God in the deck... at least it can occassionally do something.
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
Well, I run Wrath of God in the deck anyway. Just for reference, here's the list I've been testing:
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Decree of Justice
3 Wrath of God
4 Standstill
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Fact or Fiction
But you're right, Standstill doesn't help much. It will still break on a Dread Return, hopefully answering your prayer for a Force of Will (and maybe an Extirpate/EE for the following turns).
This Saturday I make 3rd in the Pro Tour Valencia side event over 190 people with a 4C approach. I went 7-1 on matchees and 15-2 on games. This was my build:
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Quagnoth
1 Life from the Loam
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
SB:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Teferi's Response
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Misdirection
1 Slaugther Pact
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pulse of the Fields
The deck was a blast to play. I win over Goblins Rw, 2 Threshold, Bomberman, Whitestax, Burn and Pikula. I lost to Iggy.
The deck performs very well against Threshold, I used to Extirpate counters, specially Force of Will, to play all my responses against creatures easily. Quagnoth also proves as a very useful finisher, not to play more, but one is very good to draw. He is untouchable and he kills every creature in the format except Tarmogoyf.
Siding against Threshold:
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 Extirpate
-3 Stifle
-1 Counterspell (they usually play a lot Spell Snares)
-1 Cunning Wish
I really don't like side out all the wishes, they are useful against almost all pairings aside from combo: against threshold they are a removal spell (pact or Edict) or card drawing spell in late game (fact or fiction), against aggro they usually are the Pulse of the Fields that buy a lot of time to do my Pernicious Deed more powerful.
In Landstill, or 4C Landstill at least, versus Ichorid, the matchup is pretty good. You do the following: (Assuming you run Multiple Plague, Mage, Extirpate)
1. Board in your Plagues, Mages, and Extirpates. Kill Standstill. It's garbage and you lose for playing one. I've even seen Ichorid decks RUN Standstill because almost no other deck in the format is better under a Standstill than Ichorid. What you kill beyond that is up to you. I personally ditch Counterspell, because I don't find it to be all that amazing in this matchup.
2. You Plague for Illusions First, Horrors second. You don't Plague for Zombies ever under any circumstances whatsoever unless it's the only way you can live a turn. Plague-ing the Zombies and Extirpating Ichorid/Narcomoeba is the wrong strategy, as every creature they hardcast will come back with Zombies.
3. You Extirpate Bridge From Below first and Ray of Revelation second. You either go for Ichorid or Grave-Troll third, depending on your Plague situation.
4. You Mage for Ray of Revelation. Cabal Therapy and Dread Return are also options, depending on the situation.
5. You Swords to Plowshares Ichorid first and GGT second.
Obviously you might have to adjust your strategy according to what you draw. If you were to draw 3 Extirpates and no Plagues, then Extirpating Narcomoeba and Ichorid after Bridge would certainly be a decent idea.
Last edited by Tacosnape; 10-16-2007 at 02:13 PM.
Clemens is right. The best move is to get out two Plagues at Zombie and extirpate their Ichorids.
I would always set my Plagues at Zombie first (and second of course), as you can deal with the Ichorids via Swords (and Extirpate of course), while the masses of zombies will stomp you even if you plagued Horror and Illusion (they still come into play and trigger the Bridges).
So basically you have more answers to Ichorids (Swords + Extirpate), than you have to the Bridges (only the Extirpate) and therefore I think naming Zombie is the better move.
Don't forget that wasting your own activated Factory can also be a out for Bridges, but not really effective since you first have to draw one out of two Wastelands. A single Plague can also be effective since the token then only do 1 damage and can be blocked by Mishras. And Decree of Justice then suddenly begins to shine.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Taco, can you explain some of your points a bit more? I agree with some, but am confused also.
1. Why would you cut Force over your other counters? You are going to be tapping out almost every turn to deal with their threats, so why would you cut the free counterspell instead of the ones you pay for? I agree with Standstill, that's a no-brainer.
2. Wouldn't Plaguing Illusions/Horrors just give them more zombies to kill you with? I would think (other than bridge/dredgers depending on when) you would want to get rid of Ich and Moeba to stop them from making the zombies. I guess you have a lot of ways to deal with zombies, but you have to live long enough to do so. Obv. if you have an explosives out for 0 you don't need to plague zombies right away. If you have no way to deal with bridge, then I would definitely name zombies.
3/4. Extirpate and Mage are completely game-state dependent. Depending on what you need to deal with at the time is what you hit. You're probably right generally though.
5. Makes sense, basically hit what's gonna hurt the most. Again, game-state dependent.
Also, on your comment about RGBSA earlier, there were at least 3 RGBSA at EPIC DLD, with 1 placing 2nd, and I believe there were 5/6 survivals total. At least 3 were in contention the whole time.
On a side note, I believe that 4c w/ deed is gonna be the way to go once Teeg becomes legal, depending on how many decks throw him in as combo hate, cuz he also hits wrath and humility.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
I so agree with this.
The UWb list with Cunning Wishes has just 7 answers to him aside from countering (Swords to Plowshares, Cunning Wish -> Ghastly Demise) and 3 of them are incredibly slow. He basically cuts you off all your removal.
I've started playing around with a 4c List based on Taco's these days but I don't have any data up to now as I'm too buisy with school and stuff... God, I hate being in the second last year as it just cuts you off all your time for hobbies and such.
Anyways, here's my first draft of a remoded 4c list:
No stifles for the reasons stated above in this thread.Code:// Lands 2 Nantuko Monastery 4 Mishra's Factory 3 Polluted Delta 4 Flooded Strand 4 Tundra 3 Tropical Island 4 Underground Sea // Spells 4 Counterspell 4 Force of Will 4 Brainstorm 4 Standstill 3 Fact or Fiction 4 Pernicious Deed 2 Crime/Punishment 2 Engineered Explosives 4 Swords to Plowshares 2 Vindicate 1 Vedalken Shackles 2 Crucible of Worlds // Sideboard 4 Engineered Plague 3 Extirpate 4 Leyline of the Void 3 Gaddock Teeg 1 Meddling Mage
The lone Shackles are a test slot as they should be great in the lategame but I don't want to run any more because the 6 non-Islands make them 'not killing a Tarmogoyf' (aka bad) in the early game.
Vindicates are the random Krosan Grip/Dark Banishing slot which used to be Disenchant in the original BHWC version.
I'm not sure about the sideboard yet, especially not about the Teeg/Mage distribution.
There's also some newly stirred up discussion of this archetype here.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
