It's funny to see how almost everyone here seems to like it while almost everyone at SCG disagrees with it.
I thought it was kind of meh. Didn't really get anything out of reading it, it seemed a little too whiny to be interesting. I don't like an article which is just whining and accusations amied at DCI (which most of the time, I think are unjustified), when reading an article I want to get new information, broaden my horizon or improve my play skill or know just something I didn't already and that article did nothing. Just an outburst from an angry player, many like it because they agree and are mad too, but the actual contents of the article are kind of lacking.
Don't get me wrong, I really want Flash to be banned... But that's just not a good article.
Although you never used the specific words, you are basically applying the old "In the grand scheme of things..." argument. I find it irksome when people employ this reasoning because, really, it can be endlessly extrapolated and applied to anything. After all, we're all just dust in the wind, and in a thousand years we'll all be long forgotten. In a billion years, the Earth will be a dried up husk. And the Earth is just a tiny speck in the vastity of the universe, anyway. Sigh. Why bother being passionate about anything?Originally Posted by Bardo
Anyway, getting back to the matter at hand... It's not like we're rioting in the streets, throwing rocks, and knife-fighting. There's nothing wrong with a good amount of healthy argumentation.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
There's a difference between being against any change and being against change that is obviously damaging. I'm not aware of too many people, besides apparently Tacosnape, who were upset that Empty the Warrens based combo was becoming a top contender in Legacy, because that deck is more or less fair. You might consider banning LED, but I for one wouldn't want to ban EtW itself, as it merely makes the archetype viable, not broken.
But Flash didn't "change the metagame"; it destroyed the metagame.
For comparison, take Karsten's review of metagame decisions from his last article. Columbus was a field approximately 70% "anti-Flash", with at most only 20% being random aggro/combo decks Hulk-Flash will completely annihilate. But Hulk-Flash was in reality still the correct choice because it consistently beat most of the decks designed to hate it. If most metagames are like rock-paper-scissors, then Flash is like reality; in reality, rock smashes scissors and then it smashes paper, because it's a fucking rock.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
There was a time that I was hesitant to voice negative opinions about any Legacy articles; I figured that we had such a dearth of material that any press was good press. However, with the weekly articles from SCG (thank you!) and the May's support from WotC (and Flash), I'm not as gun shy about criticizing a Legacy piece.
I feel a bit of the same way that Tom LaPille feels. The article seemed a little over the top - slightly arrogant and much too accusatory. Tom, don't be sickened. Not everyone here was happy with the article.
Ultimately, I hope that tomorrow brings Flash's banning so we can move on from this whole May Flash debacle.
I'm using my terms in a reasonable manner. My comments should not be read or extropolated to think I passively condone murder, rape and general mayhem because we're just "dust in the wind" blowing around a cold and indifferent Universe. I am simply stating: "Have some perspective and relax."
I would not describe the arguments in the SCG forums for this article as "healthy," in any sense that I would or have used that word.Anyway, getting back to the matter at hand... It's not like we're rioting in the streets, throwing rocks, and knife-fighting. There's nothing wrong with a good amount of healthy argumentation.
If Flash was 10% of the attendance (I've heard 10% tossed around a lot), that means 88 people were playing the deck. The other 90% were decks attempting to beat Flash, or decks that didn't care about their chances. So about 794. With only 88 people playing Flash and fighting through 794 decks of hate, it still managed to compose almost 50% of the T8. Out of the other 794 decks, only a pathetic 5 (a little more than half a percent) managed to barely crack 50%. Then Flash goes on a rampage and destroys the Top 8 to come home with the gold.
With 5 Non-Flash decks to the 3 Flash decks, the Non-Flash decks had better chances of pulling it out, considering Flash was a completely "fair deck, and if you hear otherwise, that's a load of crap." That's what pisses me off most and why I believe Chris has merit. To sit there before the GP, writing articles that tried to play off Flash as anything but a fucking atom bomb to the format was an absurdity. While Chris does have the tendencies to go on the attack, I think some people are still being equally ignorant about this whole situation.
This isn't about, "Oh, Legacy players are whiny bitches because they can't cope with a format change before an event." This is about dumping a deck into the format that's strictly better (there's literally no argument to say otherwise) than any other deck. And it proved its power by being the minority deck of the tournament, and still crushing everything it came across, putting up better numbers than every other deck in the format.
What irks me more is this whole, "There's no such thing as bad press." shit. Do people out there actually buy that? If your name is in the headlines all over the nation and in the news about being an avid child molester, do you actually believe things are looking good for you because, "There's no such thing as bad press"? It's not about Legacy getting mentioned or making article news, it's the reason Legacy is making the headlines. People whined about how Legacy was only a '3 Deck Format,'....And...how did Flash change that exactly and make it a good thing? Now we have a Flash, Anti-Flash, and decks that beat Anti-Flash. Seems kinda like a Big 3 to me...
That's all I have to say about this crap. I'll be glad when the changes come tomorrow and put aside this garbage and we can all go back to playing cards.
Well, "reasonable" in not easily quantifiable. I would grudgingly agree that "murder, rape and general mayhem" are not reasonable. However, I think debate - even heated debate - is perfectly reasonable. Healthy, even.
I just really dislike it when someone jumps into a discussion and says "Hey, get some perspective. There are more important things in the world." Well, yeah, no matter what the topic at hand, there's always something more important. It's an unfair thing to say.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
It mystifies me that everyone is acting so surprised by what happened at the grand prix.
Many legacy players seem to think that magic formats are happy, idyllic places where every card has a right to roam free, and that when this is not the case because one or two best strategies are apparent, something is wrong. This could not possibly be further from the truth.
The idea of a magic format being a happy idyll where every card available holds hands and sings together while the sun shines through rainbows is preposterous. A more appropriate mental image would be a war zone or a wild west frontier town in mid-shootout. In the real world, cards fight tooth and nail with each other for the right to see play, and they see competitive play commensurate with how good they are. This is the natural order of things. When I see a format that looks on the surface like the happy idyll I described above, I smile to myself and anticipate the fallout that will inevitably occur, driving the weakest strategies to extinction.
Before this grand prix, I thought that Legacy had the looks of that happy idyll, and I wondered how long it could last. The fallout finally hit in Columbus. Before the grand prix, one might not be faulted for believing that he could play pretty much any deck in legacy and have a real shot. Since the grand prix, we know that this is not the case. Essentially, two strategies succeeded in Columbus. The first was broken combo, with Flash being the obvious best implementation of that strategy. The other successful strategy was fish, in the sense of small creatures backed by very fast disruption. The two black decks used Wasteland, Duress, and Cabal Therapy; Threshold and UWB Fish use Meddling Mage, Stifle, Daze, Force of Will. All three of these decks are different implementations of the same strategy that end up taking the same role. The "other" successful deck was Goblins, but Owen's goblin deck gets a free pass since it is actually pretty good at playing the fish role against Kiki-Jiki flash.
Whether or not this is "healthy" or "good" or anything, it doesn't surprise me. We all played Legacy that weekend, which means that all kinds of crazy cards were legal. Eventually, something was going to break. It takes an event like a grand prix to motivate people to actually break it, but with so many cards in the environment, something is going to give. When that happens, your options are going to become to either be broken or fight the broken. That is what happened at this grand prix: we found out why the format was broken, and no one who ignored that succeeded. The fact that there is outrage and disappointment with this is what mystifies me.
If there was a vintage grand prix at some point, I would expect the only successful decks to be stupid combo decks that did not interact all that much. Such decks might take the form of Ichorid, or Gifts, or Flash, but they are all just stupid combo decks with disruption backup. It's not likely that a fish or Stax deck could survive fifteen rounds of high-level vintage. This is just what happens when you put every card in play. If a vintage grand prix were run, and the top eight contained all stupid combo decks, any outrage about that would be laughable.
It is true that the Flash errata was handled awkwardly by Wizards. However, I think that even if the broken combo du jour isn't Flash, something like Flash would have been the best deck. Aluren is essentially the same deck, but slower. When that happens, the best ways to fight it are going to be blue counters, black discard, and wasteland. If you don't like that, why are you playing legacy?
My point here is that playing an eternal format seriously is asking for broken to happen. If you want to play a wide-open format in which games are interactive and the cards are often powerful but still somehow fair, may I suggest Extended, Standard or Block Constructed?
Two months ago, Legacy was "a wide-open format in which games are interactive and the cards are often powerful but still somehow fair." Tomorrow, it will be again, so you will have one more format that you can add to your list of suggestions. If the format gets broken again somewhere down the line, we'll worry about it then. I don't accept your Inevitable Destiny Theory.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are arguing that since there are so many cards available in an eternal format, it will eventually become broken, and you just have to deal with it. It also sounds like you are saying that since Vintage is filled with stupid combo decks and is an eternal format, it is only natural that Legacy follow suit, since it is an eternal format. So the argument looks like this:
If Legacy is filled with stupid combos, then it is an eternal format because Vintage is an eternal format that is filled with stupid combos.
Vintage is an eternal format that is filled with stupid combos.
Therefore, Legacy is filled with stupid combos (or should be because it's an eternal format like Vintage).
Or an argument structure to that effect. This is a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent, or is something close to it.
If you want to play an eternal format in which the games are non-interactive and all but a few cards are banned, may I suggest you make your own format called Vitage Lite?
Last edited by Cabal-kun; 05-31-2007 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Wiki link removed for fear of Peter Rotten retribution.
Many Tom LaPilles think that putting your hand into the middle of a fire is an enjoyable experience for any intellectually minded individual. In fact, doing so is quite painful- this absurd notion that placing your hand into an open flame is pleasurable could not be further from the truth.
If we're all quite done with our straw man arguments, let's move on.
I fixed your post for you.Essentially, one strategy succeeded in Columbus. The first was broken combo, with Flash being the only possible implementation of that strategy. The other proportionately unsuccessful strategy was fish, in the sense of small creatures backed by very fast disruption.
Speaking of ludicrous fantasy worlds, allow me to pop your bubble.Whether or not this is "healthy" or "good" or anything, it doesn't surprise me. We all played Legacy that weekend, which means that all kinds of crazy cards were legal. Eventually, something was going to break. It takes an event like a grand prix to motivate people to actually break it, but with so many cards in the environment, something is going to give. When that happens, your options are going to become to either be broken or fight the broken. That is what happened at this grand prix: we found out why the format was broken, and no one who ignored that succeeded. The fact that there is outrage and disappointment with this is what mystifies me.
You seem to be suggesting that broken combos constantly lurk beneath the surface of Legacy, and that it took an event like a Grand Prix to motivate people to find the combo.
What actually happened was that an unerrata that quickly became public knowledge that everyone and their mother was aware of took over the format. It was not some secret but inevitable development; everyone saw it coming, and it happened only because Flash was unerrated.
Are there lots of unknown combos in Legacy? Probably. But they didn't start storming tournaments until they won the game for the cost of an Impulse.
Umm, yeah, that's why Vintage is a dumb format that no one plays.If a vintage grand prix were run, and the top eight contained all stupid combo decks, any outrage about that would be laughable.
If you want a format that comes down to dumb cards that obviously should be banned that win the game turn 1-2, might I recommend Vintage? Because almost no one actually has an interest in such a format.My point here is that playing an eternal format seriously is asking for broken to happen. If you want to play a wide-open format in which games are interactive and the cards are often powerful but still somehow fair, may I suggest Extended, Standard or Block Constructed?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
What was the most suprising from the GP was the lack of Flash decks in the top 8 and how many people choose not to run the best deck.
Cards/Decks warp metagames. For example, Goblin Lackey forced decks to have an answer to it first turn or ignore it and win the game. All of these answers were available in every color. These are tournament viable cards like Mongoose, Swords, Bolt, Infest, Chain, Stifle, whatever.
Flash did much more than warp the metagame, it destroyed it.
What Flash did was make it so the only disruption that mattered was countermagic, or discard. Basically eliminating three other colors from the game.
What was the most disturbing thing about Flash was it's ability to just smash through any hate decks aimed at it. I can't recall how many times I read about other people beating the ever loving crap out of Fish because it had no clock. Flash wasn't just a Combo deck it was Combo/Control. Because of the nature of the Combo, the deck was able to cram in all the disruption Fish had but with a MUCH better finish. Hell the best anti-Flash deck was the one geared to beat the mirror. 16 MD disruption spells or Counterbalance/Top is pretty good in that regard and also smashing the crap out of any hate decks like Fish.
If the Pros had tested the deck and there was a few weeks worth of more development there would have been a Top 8 full of Flash. Wasn't it Sadin who made a mistake against a random Goblins opponent comboing off and still won the whole thing? He picked up the deck with little experience and won the whole tournament.
For some reason people just did not realize that Flash was the best deck. And the results show that. If decks can finish just outside of the Top 8 and play narrow boards cads maindeck such as Leyline of the Void or Red Elemental Blast(!) then something is seriously wrong here.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
It doesn't need to be, to reasonable people.
With the exception of the three Grands Prix, Jack, even less people played Legacy.
I actually agree wholeheartedly with Tom's assessment, if not the severity of it. What Flash did was evolve the format into it's final form multiple years earlier than was likely (even at the Grand Prix level) otherwise. There were inklings of this before Flash was broken; the GPT (singular only because Flash was the next weekend and why play strictly a combo deck when you can play the best combo AND the best control deck?) where Belcher was the best deck by far due to Empty the Warrens is an example of how the format was liable to evolve anyways. We have seen increasing numbers of broken silly decks across the board anyways - Belcher's liable to be very good still, and that's just the first deck that I can think of (Aluren's on the rise but was not so much more degenerate in terms of raw power than say, High Tide and is devilishly hard to play) that is possible.
Far more people play diverse, interesting formats that involve strategic metagaming than play Vintage.
Stop. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop.What Flash did was evolve the format into it's final form multiple years earlier than was likely (even at the Grand Prix level) otherwise.
Formats don't have final forms. Any argument built upon this supposition is inherently and unequivocally wrong.
There were multiple GPTs before Flash broke, you know. CRET Belcher might have been the strongest deck in that format, but it certainly wasn't invincible and certainly didn't stomp on hate decks designed to beat it. You'll notice that no CRET Belcher decks did very well in the Columbus metagame designed to hate on combo, for instance.There were inklings of this before Flash was broken; the GPT (singular only because Flash was the next weekend and why play strictly a combo deck when you can play the best combo AND the best control deck?) where Belcher was the best deck by far due to Empty the Warrens is an example of how the format was liable to evolve anyways.
Yeah, umm, okay. So at some point in the future some other deck will become so good that some part of it will have to be banned. Point?We have seen increasing numbers of broken silly decks across the board anyways - Belcher's liable to be very good still, and that's just the first deck that I can think of (Aluren's on the rise but was not so much more degenerate in terms of raw power than say, High Tide and is devilishly hard to play) that is possible.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Tom, I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you think that Flash should remain legal? If so, what would you consider acceptable reasons for banning a card?
@Bear:
Instead of "Many legacy players" in the paragraph where you called me out on straw man, imagine it said "Alarmists like Chris Coppola." Then it all still works.
What I was saying was that Legacy has a very high power level becuase of how many cards are available. Stupid things are going to happen. If you aren't okay with stupid things happening every once in a while, then don't get in the water. That was my point. Eternal formats mean that you are playing with fire. I don't see how that's controversial.
By the way, I don't actually think that vintage is stupid at all. Games tend to be interactive and full of interesting decisions despite lasting only 3-5 turns. However, I do think that the dominant strategy by far is combo enabled by Bazaar or Yawgmoth's Will. The point there was that vintage players embrace the crazy that warps their format, while the legacy community seems to ignore the craziness that can happen in theirs.
*reaches through monitor and throttles Bardo*It doesn't need to be, to reasonable people.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
I and a number of others thought that CRET Belcher was a great deck for the metagame. I don't mind crazy combo. I just think it should have a weakness. Flash didn't.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Acceptable reasons for banning a card are for it being so good that fully zero other strategies could be correct, or that the legality of the card hurts magic in the long term (see Ravager and artifact lands in standard).
However, that's not actually material to my point. The main point that I have is that when something new and broken happens in vintage, the reaction is normally "Man, this is new and crazy and interesting! what happens now?" as opposed to "the format is suddenly awful! someone ban something!"
Basically what I'm saying is, playing a format with a giant card pool leads to some crazy things happening. I don't understand why this is hated rather than embraced.
Vintage is essentially a fight between blue/black decks, artifact decks, and decks that don't spend mana, and it's still interesting. Why couldn't legacy be the same way? In fact, with so many cards and so many potential combos, doesn't it strike you as odd that it wasn't already a fight between blue and black decks? I personally think it's pretty amazing that basic mountains get played in legacy still.What Flash did was make it so the only disruption that mattered was countermagic, or discard. Basically eliminating three other colors from the game.
Last edited by Tom LaPille; 05-31-2007 at 11:12 PM.
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