If you run tops then you should run fetches. The more shuffling the better your options the more consistent you can make the deck. Stifle shouldn't be a problem.
Seth
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If you run tops then you should run fetches. The more shuffling the better your options the more consistent you can make the deck. Stifle shouldn't be a problem.
Seth
@Seth: Have you ever tried to include some plains in your land base? With the 6 blood moon effects in your MD, do you only rely on the petal to produce the white mana?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Current list. Please comment. Sent from cell so I used abbreviations.
3 City
4 Tomb
5 red fetchs
8 mountains
4 spirt guide
4 recruiter
4 Painter
1 magus of moon
1 welder
4 grindstone
3 top
3 magma jet
4 bolt
5 blasts
1 l petal
2 e. bridge
4 blood moon
board:
4 thorn of a
4 surgical
2 e bridge
2 spellskite
2 koth
1 jaya
That's a lot of burn. Interesting. How is it working out for you. I like your land base. That should be stable. I would stress running one jaya in the main. Otherwise looks interesting. Why the burn over blast effects.
I have tried a plains but you sort of always want a mountain. It isn't important to be able to cast the e tutor most of the time so it's worth taking the hit when a blood moon and mountain are mostly better.
Seth
The burn helps to stabilize until e. bridge or combo
Lambert stabilize against what? Recruiter actually looks a lot weaker in your build because you're only running 1 welder and nothing else really to go get. Blasts are much better at playing the control route than burn spells are so I'd drop 2-3 burn of your choice and add a recruit target and two blasts or vice versa.
Regarding the whole Witchbane Orb conversatioon I tried to bring up: I went on vacation for the past week so obv wasn't around to talk about it. Moving on;
My list is pretty standard, I have been playing a lot of TES lately and haven't been testing Painter. It's pretty similar to Kapt'n Cook's:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
4 Arid Mesa
4 Mountain
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chrome Mox
2 Faithless Looting
2 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
The sideboard has Koths and Pyroclasms and Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre, an extra blast or two and then three or four Witchbane Orbs.
I used to play Leyline. And I have learned to mulligan aggressively with the deck even before that. My first experience with the deck was GP Ghent, where I literally picked up the deck from a friend and went 6-3 day one, losing to Red decks. Don't remember what my sideboard was, I think I even had an Anarchy in there because playing Trials the day before I got pissed off by Humility. Anyways, the only advice I got about the deck was that Blood Moon or an early combo is good, mulligan to a hand that actually does something. And sticking to my guns, I pulled off some pretty sick mulligans, winning a couple times with a four card hand, and of course five and six card mulligans as well. After that experience I added Leyline for Tendrils/Burn/discard and all the things that hate on Painter. I found myself not liking the No-Leyline-Ship-It plan, and even splashed white for a short time for eTutor and a little RiP/Helm combo action. Total junk. Nowadays I'm back to the mono red version because Blood Moon is tits. Plus my particular deck is all "original", Beta or Original BB printings, my style of pimp. Beta REBs, Dark Blood Moons, shit looks awesome. So that leads me to have card preferences that might not always be a 100% optimal, but I won't play something crap just because it's from X set.
With the preface out of the way, my findings with Orb are mixed. In games two/three, you're likely to be going the mono-red control route. Therefore, I figured that with Welder and Lootings and other library manipulation with Jets and Tops, you can shave some "percentage points" for less optimal cards without affecting you're mulligan decision tree. Consistency is the premise, here. So to pheonix and Drew, this is my list and theories behind it all. As I said I haven't played the deck consistently as of late so your 2 cents are worth a lot :)
Well Jandax... I've never tried the Welder painter version, 'cause I find it to GY dependant.... Now I know, that it has to rely on the GY, since you're playing welder, but the danish meta is all about the hate..
I would really like to test the Welder version, since it allows for supreme combat tricks, but maybe when the meta settles on a more fair environment, I'll give it a try :)
I'm going a bit more old school tomorrow, when Danish Legacy Masters 2013 goes down... My list for saturday is as follows:
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Blood Moon
4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone
3x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Chrome Mox
1x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Lightning Bolt
10x Mountains (Arabian Night edition... Gotta pimp FTW, right guys? ;))
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
Sideboard:
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Trinisphere
1x Manic Vandal
1x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Ensnaring Bridge
The 2 Trinisphere in the SB is a test, I'm not sure wether to play Spheres or Needles tomorrow.. I got the Revokers against DRS, LED's and stuff, but do I need extra?
I think my biggest concern tomorrow are the U/R shelled show decks... I hate Eldrazi's, but I'm guessing it's a simple choice of boarding the stones out for the bridges and the extra revoker maybe?
What do you think? :)
For your list against show and tell I think I would go -3 blood moon -4 grindstone and bring in the revoker, the bridges, the trinispheres (cantrips? not too sure. otherwise keep in the moons) and the 7th blast and play control.
I think the best way to do well is to just know your deck and be comfortable with it.
For everyone, I am really interested in Seth's decision to try out firebolt. I think if I were to make the switch I would just cut the 3 bolts maindeck and go with those. I am still hesitant because the 3 damage and instant speed help out random scenarios. But the card advantage and even greater synergy with faithless looting/grindstoning yourself have me intrigued. If anyone wants to help me out in data collection, make notes of when you draw/play your lightning bolts whether you would prefer firebolt in its place. This also includes times where you would want to flashback.
Jandax, if you've been playing TES a bunch, I'd suggest trying to fit Thorn of Amethyst in the SB if possible. I have found a set of Thorns very helpful in a variety of matchups aside from Storm too including against Show & Tell decks, Reanimator and Burn. Welder can support and kind of abuse Thorn as well.
Since I haven't played a Welder-heavy build in a while (I tend towards phoenix's concern about GY dependence), I don't have a great feel for it in the current meta. But would a 4th Top not be worth it? Seems like you could much more easily get Tops on the board and in the yard and turn each Welder into an extra draw every turn...while getting the added overall consistency from an extra Top. Although I guess I'm not considering the red color count for Chrome Mox.
Generally though, your card choices and reasoning seem solid. I personally like to avoid mulligans but your point that the deck can win through more selective keeps is totally valid. Yours and Kap'n's lists do make me miss the stronger Welder plan because that ability is just so stupidly good.
The idea of testing Firebolt with Looting is interesting, and also maybe in a list like yours, lambert.
I like the heavy burn plan but have usually found that approach increases the amount of times the deck runs out of gas. That's probably why I have favored Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt when the meta allows it because many times I play a Bolt and then feel like "...and then what?". I wonder if Firebolt might help there. I'd also agree with sroncor that Jaya should probably be in the MD, which would address lack of Recruiter targets Kap'n mentioned. Jaya can finish the burn win condition and works well behind Bridge also.
At a minimum, I'd suggest replacing a single Bolt with Jaya. Even though the Flashback is expensive, Firebolt is tempting too unless you think the 3 damage is crucial in your meta. If I were to test something going in the direction of your list lambert, I'd start with your MD and go: -2 Bridge, -4 Bolt and +3 Firebolt, +1 Jaya, +1 Revoker, +1 Top/Metamorph/2nd Revoker/Land.
Re: Fetchlands - I like them especially with Top, but I'm not in favor of completely maximizing shuffle effects with them. Firstly, life loss IS an issue with this deck. Second, Grindstone and Recruiter already give you ways to manipulate your deck with Top (as does Jet on its own if you play it). And finally, it's nice for your manabase to completely ignore hate like Stifle, and less frequently Aven Mindcensor, etc. I have also found that once I have Top, many times I want access to my mana without having to shuffle because the cards I want are already on top of the library. Sometimes this has resulted in a conflict with Fetchlands when I want to tap to draw with Top for a Blast, but the only red mana I have to play the Blast requires re-shuffling.
Good luck this weekend phoenix, and to anyone else playing this beast. Hopefully I'll be able to play tomorrow and we'll get another 24-30-person turnout like we've been getting recently in Houston.
At Ghent I had three or four Thorns in the side, and they weren't bad. Again I only played against decks that lose to Blood Moon and Red decks. Therefore, thorns weren't really in use but as it was my friend's loaner deck, he knew to have them in there.
As to the Welder argument, I think one of the deck's main strengths, if not the biggest one, is Blood Moon. With that in mind, playing to your Welders or something else is entirely up to the pilot it seems. I don't think the judge foils will make this deck a DTB, but at least it'll put it on people's radar and we'll be losing a little bit of the surprise factor that lends this deck many wins.
@Drew, I get it that fetchlands aren't exactly optimal all the time. I don't play them for the wee percentage of taking a land out of the deck to liven topdecks, they're literally there for library manipulation with Tops and because I don't have enough pimp mountains :[ I also don't think a fourth Top is necessary per se, while they're nice with Welder shenanigans they're horrible without [in multiples] and through my experience three is a comfortable number.
Thanks guys for your insights, all valid points and it helped. Good luck to those playing this weekend!
Since I've just finished my play set of recruiters I figured I'd post my current list.
4 Painter
4 Recruiter
4 SSG
2 Revoker
1 Jaya
1 Welder
1 Magus
1 Metamorph
3 Lightning Bolt
3 REB
4 Pyroblast
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's
1 Petal
4 Blood Moon
4 Tomb's
3 City's
4 Red Fetch
9 Mountain
SB
4 Bridge
3 Thorn
2 Surgical extraction
2 Koth
1 Macabre
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 T Crypt
1 REB
For my choices main board, I'm happy with my creature package for the recruiters. As much as I love Magma jets for deck manipulation 2 mana is just too slow for me personally. I do run pretty REB heavy, I just feel they become to powerful of a card with or without painter (blue is very heavy in my area).
For SB I really enjoy the Koth with Bridge, because as soon as you get that ultimate its hard to lose. Oops all spells decks are getting popular in my area so the cranial extractions are a must, and I just like the card in general. I love the idea for Martyr that was show in this thread, it takes my want for a pyroclasm and synergizes it perfectly with recruiters.
Well, that went.... Bad, to say the least... :(
I played 7 rounds swiss yesterday at Danish Legacy Masters and I failed in a lot of ways....
Round 1 was against Esperblade control, with 24 lands.... That's a little more, than I like :P Lost to basics eventually xD
Round 2... Again Esperblade, but a good friend of mine.. Game 1, I'm on the play, drop the Blood Moon, and it gets countered.. But hey, straight from the top, Blood Moon again on turn 2, leaving him frustrated :D Lost game 2, to a Engineered Explosives and game 3, same as game 1 :laugh: Seriously, ripping the 2nd Blood Moon as a topdeck.... PURE AWESOMENESS! :D
The following rounds I proceeded to meet Mono-R Sneak Attack among other things... Game 2, I had boarded the stones out for E-Bridges, but he was to fast for me... :(
Eventually I went 3-4.. Not the grand rehearsal for GP Strasbourg I'd hoped for, but hey: I'm still taking this to town in April ;)
On a sidenote: Cutting the 3rd Chrome Mox for a singleton Lotus Petal.... It helped a lot! Every time I drew Lotus Petal, it helped me, more than a Chrome Mox would have.. Not having to imprint a red card for that red mana was good :)
Wether it's a viable option in the long run? I'm not sure, but it saved me, last night :)
So I've got an idea I've been working on for Sneak-Show, and I'd like to share it with the rest of you because I think I'm really on to something. First of all, here's my list:
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Magma Jet
2 Chrome Mox
5 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Sideboard:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
I've seen a lot of talk from people in this thread and the previous version about siding in 1x Tormod's Crypt, 1x Faerie Macabre or something like that. The plan proposed is to pretty much just go forward with this deck's plan A, pray to God to draw a Crypt in time (or that Macabre is enough), and thus this deck will still be able to win.
I've been going about the match-up in a completely different way. Here's my sideboard plan:
-4 Grindstone
-2 Painter's Servant
-3 Magma Jet
-1 Jaya Ballard
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Blood Moon
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Koth of the Hammer
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+4 Thorn of Amethyst
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
I side out all my Grindstones and most of my Painters because that plan is just not good enough against decks that play Eldrazi. The plan instead is to just play a solid control game. The REBs are extremely powerful in this match-up, and I leave in a couple Painters so I'm able to counter Sneak Attack if necessary. A key part of this plan is Thorn of Amethyst -- It slows Sneak-Show down enough that this deck can get set up to play control properly. I tested today using this configuration and was extremely pleased by the result.
There's a non-trivial secondary benefit to this plan as well. In one of the matches I played today, my opponent brought in 3 or 4 Pithing Needles. He kept hands games two and three on the basis of being able to name Grindstone with his needles. People will be boarding in cards to nullify a plan that is no longer in our deck, and an opponent playing blank cards in games 2 and 3 is a very big deal.
I'm not saying that this makes the match-up super easy in games 2 and 3, but I believe it to be a better plan than the "Board in some Crypts or something and hope they make my combo work" plan. If there's one thing I want to stress more than anything else, it's this: This deck is not good when plan A is a 3-card combo.
Edit: Reading back over the thread more carefully, I'm apparently not the first one to come up with this strategy. I stand by everything I said though, and I'm sure I'm not the only person reading this thread who has missed that.
I suggest that Jaya and painters shouldn't be sided out. Remove all moon effects instead because they are less effective against sneakshow.
This way, you still have a way to win under the E.bridge lock even if they needle Koth.
Yes I have tried a plains but right now I would rather have the red source. Hitting the white isn't that important really.
In response to The Duressed post. Your idea is ok for sneak and show decks. But it fails miserably against hive mind, omnishow, or combo elves. It's for those reasons I feel like this strategy is not a good one across the board. Yes a three card combo is suboptimal but it can win. This strategy does not address those decks and folding to them seems like a bad idea right now. And thorn should only be brought in against storm and even then I am not sure it is worth doing.
Seth
@the Duressed - the SB plan I posted for Sneak and Show is pretty close to what you're doing, but I definitely agree with thebastard2 about Jaya. I think there are other things you could take out ahead of her, like Moons. Jaya is a win condition behind Bridge and with Painter can destroy shit like Emrakul or whatever.
I use a fairly similar plan against Omnitell, but I'll side out Revoker more readily than against Sneak and Show.
My Sneak and Show plan with the same MD is: +4 thorn, +4 Bridge, +2 Blast, +1 Crypt / -4 Moon, -3 Grindstone, -3 Jet, -1 Servant
So, I'm completely abandoning Moon because I actually want a bunch of mana under Thorn(s) and Moon isn't worth it against their deck. By doing that, I don't have to side out good stuff.
Against Omnitell I would probably do the same but with +1 Servant, -1 Revoker.
Yeah, I can definitely see taking out more moons to keep Jaya and the rest of the painters in the main. I'll make that adjustment.
sroncor1: I'm very surprised to hear you talk about Thorn the way you do. I know you're playing Enlightened Tutor in your deck, which makes the Tormod's Crypt plan a bit better, but it still doesn't look like you have very much to bring in against combo decks of any variety. The only thing I see in your sideboard which would be potentially helpful against those decks is your 4x Tormod's Crypt, 4x Rest in Peace. I've found Thorn to be a very helpful tool against many "unfair" decks because it either slows the opponent down enough for us to get in control (Show and Tell, Hive Mind, Omnishow) or completely destroys their plan (Storm Combo, etc). Have your Crypts and RIPs been enough for you to beat combo and decks with Eldrazi?
ps: I agree that my plan against the Elves deck with Eldrazi is not good, but I don't care. That's a match-up that i'm willing to not plan for because it's so rare.
Here is a general rule: If the deck you are facing against sometimes sideboards blood moons or runs around 10 basics (basically a high number, whatever), then 90% of the time you don't want to keep yours in. The only reason you might want to is if you have cards that are even worse for that matchup, it turns off a particular utility land of theirs, or you want to stop shuffle effects by fetchlands. Again, this is not the be-all and end-all rule.
If you are facing emrakul elves then they are almost always mono-green, and moons should be taken out for crypts and other control cards.
Later this week I will finally get around to posting matchup analysis in the 2nd post on the 1st page of this thread so everyone can reference it if they have questions.
Just wanted to stop over and say gratz on your MTGO Legacy Daily win tonight. It was a pleasure getting decked by you. ...but that is mostly because Painter's Servant make the beautiful enchantress deck look even cooler. :cool: Keep rollin'Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook