Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

I guess this really isn't a rules question, but I couldn't think of any other forum to post it in.

Tithe and Thawing Glaciers were always two of my favorite cards for thinning and finding mana in my decks from the past. While reaclimating myself I see that these "fetch" lands are all the rage and understandably so. Amazing for multicolored decks, but you already knew that.

My mind still seems trapped in the MTG of the past so some of my reasoning doesn't translate well today, but all my senses are telling me the answer to my question is YES! I'll ask it anyway...

Would Fetch Lands be considered beneficial to a mono colored deck and if yes, how many would you run? Would you still folllow the 2-1 ratio and take out one basic land for 2 Fetch?

It really depends on the deck. If you use Goyf, Rotting Giant, or Jotun Grunt you are going to want that land in your graveyard, so fetchlands are good to play. If you play Sensei's Divining Top or Brainstorm, you are going to want fetchlands for their shuffle effect.
However, fetchlands are not always good. Many monocolored decks have no real use for fetchlands. The minor deck thinning usually isn't worth the 1 life, not to mention the chance of being stifled (In my opinion).
In a deck that really wants them, I'd run the full 8. In a deck that might need them for 1 card, I'd run 4 - 6.

Yeah the shuffle effect is optimal next to mana retrival in multicolored. I guess they also help to reach threshold faster and all sorts of other tricks I'm ignorant of.

I do run Rotting Giants, but only 2 simply because I don't wanna get screwed. Spending $50 just to be able to run 3 or 4 isn't a priority for me right now. I was simply going to use them for possible better draws (not running Confidant) to thin things out a bit and not slow the tempo down.

I'd agree that ~6 is a good number. The deck thinning helps a ton in longer drawn out games against control so it can also be a metagame call.

Mathemagics: Onslaught Fetchlands

Short version: the deck-thinning effect of fetchlands is roughly comparable to paying 4 life to draw an extra card, and such a trade is achieved on average around turn 25. Therefore, the thinning effect alone is not reason enough to run fetches.

Yea they are definitely worth it if there is any synergy in your deck regarding land/cards in the graveyard or/and shuffle effects. Paying 1 life for a shuffle in conjunction with library manipulation or an extra card type for Goyf/card toward Threshold is going to be worth it. If you deck doesn't have any need for shuffling or building up its graveyard its probably better to run w/o them and leave you less susceptible to Stifle.

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Originally Posted by Nihil

Mathemagics: Onslaught Fetchlands

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That sums it up nicely. Well at least if I'm thinking wrong there are many others who thought like wise or there wouldn't be such an article. Very interesting site btw, thanks!

Cairo, (Killemall mentioned it as well as the article) I'm not familiar with the term "Stifle"?

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Originally Posted by Versus

Cairo, (Killemall mentioned it as well as the article) I'm not familiar with the term "Stifle"?

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Stifle - U
Instant (Rare, from Scourge)
Counter target activated or triggered ability.

It's a pretty effective card in Legacy, and one of the main reasons for it is that Stifling a fetchland activation (thereby preventing you from searching a land) is, in a Sourcer's immortal words, "what would happen if Time Walk and Stone Rain had sex... and Lava Dart watched".

HAHA! Okay, I thought it was term like "burn" or "ping". This countering effect from Stifle is only until the end of the current turn though?

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Originally Posted by Versus

HAHA! Okay, I thought it was term like "burn" or "ping". This countering effect from Stifle is only until the end of the current turn though?

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It's a response, it works just like countering a spell.

Opponent - I activate my Polluted Delta's ability: I pay its costs (tap the Delta, sacrifice it, and pay 1 life), and the ability "Search your library for (etc)" is put on the stack. Then I pass priority.
Me - I play Stifle targeting the ability, then I pass priority.
Opponent - Why do you hate me so much? I've got no countermagic, so I guess I pass priority.
The Game - Stifle resolves, the Polluted Delta's ability is countered and goes to Hell.

Ohhhhhh, nice! I wasn't taking into consideration that the "Cost" was sacrificing. So this would work against removing counters on a Jitte or the sacrificing of a Fanatic as well, their cost is a one time only and lost forever.

In other instances say on Belcher you could use it to stop the Charbelcher from going off with you're opps. :3: already spent, but they would be able to activate the ability next turn, right? I was thinking for a second that Stifle could stop it indeffinatly like Pithing Needle, then I realized that would be the best spell in the galaxy!

Yes to both. The rule is that everything before the colon is the cost, everything after the colon is the effect.

Also, the rule for estabilish what can be hit by Stifle is the following (if you follow the latest Oracle text):

- A piece of text is a triggered ability if and only if it begins with "When", "Wherever", or "At".
- A piece of text is an activated ability if and only if it is written in the format "(Pay cost): (Effect)".

That clears up a lot, thanks.

I understand how it works when the cost is a sacrifice or payment by tapping, but how would Stifle effect an activated abilty that can be used more than once per turn, say the pumping of a creature on the stack?

Lets say I'm attacking with a Shade and pump him for 2 then my opp. uses Stifle and I pump for 2 more. The last 2 on the stack would still resolve, yes?

We discussed the countering of the activated ability for Jitte, but when would the opponent Stifle the triggered ability here, before an attack was made?

I guess I'm still not getting if the effect is over the entire turn or is it just on the current phases stack, resolves, then goes back to normal.

Every activation of an ability creates a single Activated Ability object on the stack. So if you pump a Shade fifteen times without passing priority (i.e. without waiting for each activation to resolve before playing the ability again) there will be fifteen separated Activated Abilities on the stack, each of which will read "Nantuko Shade gets +1/+1 until end of turn."

Stifle, unlike the old Interdict, does not care at all about the permanent that originated the ability. It only deals with (i.e. counters) its target object on the stack. So in the above example, if your opponent plays Stifle, he will choose its target among the fifteen Activated Abilities on the stack, and when Stifle resolves, only that one will be countered. The other fourteen, and clearly any other you may play afterwards, will be unaffected.

Hope that was clear enough.

Regarding the timing rules for Jitte, the triggered ability says "Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage, put two charge counters on Umezawa’s Jitte". Like all triggered abilities, it is put on the stack immediately after its trigger condition is met, that is, immediately after combat damage is dealt.

Remember (I thought this was mentioned in the other thread) that combat damage is also an object on the stack; it is put there after each player passes priority after blockers are declared. This is called assigning combat damage. Once both players have passed priority while the damage is on the stack, Combat Damage resolves and creatures or players suffer the appropriate amount of damage. This is called dealing damage, and it is this that triggers the Jitte.

(All creatures' damage form a single object on the stack.)

So, here's a formal example of how the game handles this combat phase: I want attack with a Jitte-wielding Grizzly Bears, as well as a Hill Giant, against your empty board. We have both just passed priority during my first main phase, so we enter the combat phase.

Game - Begins BEGINNING OF COMBAT STEP. You may play spells or abilities now.
Me - I pass priority.
You - I pass priority.
Game - All players have passed priority and the stack is empty. The current step ends. You may not play spells or abilities now.

Game - Begins DECLARE ATTACKERS STEP. Attacking player, what creatures do you want to attack with?
Me - Grizzly Bears and Hill Giant
Game - Grizzly Bears and Hill Giant are now tapped and attacking.
Game - You may play spells or abilities now.
Me - I pass priority.
You - I pass priority.
Game - All players have passed priority and the stack is empty. The current step ends. You may not play spells or abilities now.

Game - Begins DECLARE BLOCKERS STEP. Defending player has no creatures able to block.
Game - You may play spells or abilities now.
Me - I pass priority.
You - I pass priority.
Game - All players have passed priority and the stack is empty. The current step ends. You may not play spells or abilities now.

Game - Begins COMBAT DAMAGE STEP. Two damage from Grizzly Bears and three damage from Hill Giant are assigned to Defending Players and are put on the stack.
Game - You may play spells or abilities now.
Me - I pass priority.
You - I pass priority.
Game - All players have passed priority: the top object on the stack resolves. You may not play spells or abilities now.
Game - Combat Damage resolves, and Defending Player is dealt 2 damage from Grizzly Bears and 3 damage from Hill Giant. Defending Player's life total is reduced by 5.
Game - Triggered ability detected! Umezawa's Jitte's triggered ability is put on the stack.
Game - You may now play spells or abilities.
Me - I pass priority
You - I pass priority
Game - All players have passed priority: the top object on the stack resolves. You may not play spells or abilities now.
Game - Umezawa's Jitte's triggered ability resolves, and 2 charge counters are put on Umezawa's Jitte.
Game - You may now play spells or abilities.
Me - I pass priority.
You - I pass priority.
Game - All players have passed priority and the stack is empty. The current step ends. You may not play spells or abilities now.

Game - Begins END OF COMBAT STEP.
You may play spells or abilities now.
Me - I pass priority.
You - I pass priority.
Game - All players have passed priority and the stack is empty. The current step ends. You may not play spells or abilities now.

Game - Begins SECOND MAIN PHASE

That was longer than I thought. Good thing we shortcut through most of that, huh?

Damn, is that realistic though? Have the rules gotten that intense or is that example what was always happening just broken down to be more precise? I've said before the way we used to do it would look something like this:

Me: Attacking with Grizzy Bears and Hill Giant.
You: I'll take it.
Me: Take 5. Your turn.

At any time during this example both players would be allowed all the options of playing any and all spells or abilities during the individual phases given in your example. However, in this case the defending player from the beginning of the attack knows he has nothing to block with and nothing in hand to stop the imminent damage so he just passes on all fronts and cuts right to the chase.

I guess that's not the proper way to do it now, but if it really has to go down like that while playing every turn it seems a bit tedious.

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(Reguarding Stifle)Hope that was clear enough.

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Completely. Thank you.

Most games will be pretty cut and dry, and once you pick up on the stack and priority it's basically second nature. It looks complicated when explaining it to someone, but it's natural progression when your actually playing.

And thanks for the article, Nihil. I've always wondered just how much the thinning of the decks the fetches really did, but was too lazy to try any of the math involved :D

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Originally Posted by Versus

Damn, is that realistic though? Have the rules gotten that intense or is that example what was always happening just broken down to be more precise? I've said before the way we used to do it would look something like this:

Me: Attacking with Grizzy Bears and Hill Giant.
You: I'll take it.
Me: Take 5. Your turn.

At any time during this example both players would be allowed all the options of playing any and all spells or abilities during the individual phases given in your example. However, in this case the defending player from the beginning of the attack knows he has nothing to block with and nothing in hand to stop the imminent damage so he just passes on all fronts and cuts right to the chase.

I guess that's not the proper way to do it now, but if it really has to go down like that while playing every turn it seems a bit tedious.

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Actually, that is how it's shortcut these days as well. People only go through these kind of steps when there are important interactions to consider - Limited is by heaps and bounds the best way to learn all the secrets of the combat phase. Look out for my soon-to be published book, Everything I always wanted to know about the timing rules I learnt from Devouring Rage.

In general, you just say something like "I attack, take 5" if there is no reason to expect actions from your opponent. If he has a Twiddle in hand to tap your creature during Beginning of Combat, it is expected of him to tell you as soon as you move to attack; if you just placed your guy in the Red Zone without giving him time to declare, he'll just tell you "Wait, I have something to do in Beginning of Combat" and the game will be rewinded.

On the other hand, if he has something like an Icy Manipulator in play, then it's good etiquette (and possibly tournament rules, I'm not sure about it) to explicitly play out the Beginning of Combat step as described above. It's also good tactics, since if there is a complicated ground stall you don't want to give him extra information on what creature to tap with the artifact. Maybe he was going to tap a creature you weren't going to attack with anyway.

Whew, thank god! As DWZERO pointed out it becomes second nature. I've never been faulted for how I've played in the past so it's still likely inherent in my own game play. I just thought they for a second it HAD to be drawn out like that now. I'd need to bring an index card with all the steps listed to make sure I pass priority at all the right times!

Thanks for all the help and taking the time to explain everything thoroughly.

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Originally Posted by Versus

Thanks for all the help and taking the time to explain everything thoroughly.

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It's awesome that everyone is answering these questions so thouroughly, but at the same time, it's just as awesome that you're asking. At some point, maybe today, I plan to gather up all these questions and merge them into a stickied thread. Legacy is the format where people are most likely to look when picking up the game after a long hiatus (they can still use their old cards), and a resource like the one you're unintentionally providing is great for that.

So, in other words, thanks, and keep asking questions!

Glad I could help. I'm very grateful that the folks here are so forthcoming and don't make me feel like I'm being a burden. My skills are rusty as hell right now, but hopefully in the near future I can contribute to some of the answering as well as the asking.