[Deck] Merfolk [Archive] - Page 6

Nekrataal

03-10-2009, 05:50 AM

Hello,

Im just guessing here.. but i have a few questions that i can't answer, a big help is appriciated.

1. The decks defense is mainly mana denial via:
- wasteland (hitting non basic lands)
- stifle (hitting fetch lands)
- tidal warrior (early to mid) can serve as a minor mana denial tool or let a wakethrasher pass through

2. Merrow Reejerey Effect + Aether Vial has no synergy
- If you vial out a merfolk Reejerey effect wouldn't trigger

3. The deck has no means of eliminating opposing creatures/threat via spot removal expect maybe for countermagic or bounce temporary solution
- If your opponent summons one fatty creature the deck will try to out race it.
- The deck will try to stifle/counter Deed effect

But how does the deck able to achieve from preventing opponents from casting fatty creatures mana denail maybe ?, but what about creatures like (tarmogoyf, jotun grunt, etc) the mana denail trick will not work effectively

- If so why are there no rishadan ports
- But even with rishadan ports im guessing you still can't control the mana efficiently

What if a Shroud creature (Troll Ascetic or Slihana Ledgewalker) equiped with jitte resolves, it will kill all the decks creatures.

- Again just guessing to prevent that from happening is through mana denial ??

4. Zero combat edge
- you need atleast 2-3 LoA and Reejerey just to bring down a Sliver Knight

So based on those statments i see that mana denial is a big part in a merfolk deck maybe im wrong pls correct me. if it is maybe improving this part could help ?

On the other hand going allout offense may work using creatures with evasion (rootwater thief, Inkfathom Infiltrator, etc) packing jitte etc. and just race with your opponent and countering key cards but i doubt it.

Maybe this could help ?

- I think Inkfathom Infiltrator + Jitte is a steady offense compared to creature drop each turn just to pump wakethrasher

- Jitte/Sofi/Equipment + Tidal Warrior + Lord of Atlantis + Any islandwalker critter could make the offense much faster and will give some form of creature control

And if theres a way (equipments jitte, empyral plate, etc just maybe??) that you could just limit your self from dropping everthing and crying when firespout, pernioucs deed etc kills all your critters so that you'll be asured that you will never run out of critters to finish your opponent

1. Basically a yes plus the few counters you have. In theory attacking is also defense because you force your opponent to stay home with his creatures.

2. That is true. So you sometimes have to choose to actually play a Merfolk with a Rejeerey and a Vial on the board either to tap an opposing creature or to untap/tap a land whatever.

3. It can sometimes take over creatures with Threads or Sower. personally I like the idea of Sower more now I have seen it in many sideboards. One fatty can be raced. More fatties become problematic. The lategame of Merfolk usually isnt that strong. Yeah and stifling Deed and EE is common.

Fatty creatures ... the games should be over by then ;) Goyfs, Stalker, Grunts are controlled by Relics -> Goyfs shrink and can be blocked eventually, Stalkers never come into play, Grunts do not live long. That is the reason Relic sees played maindeck often.

Rishadan Ports -> Imho there is just no space for them and 19 lands is enough.

Shroud creatures with Jitte. That is just double bad. Shroud creatures apart from Mongoose (--> see Relics) are a problem. Jitte is usually game over if you do not have a superior board position already. Thats the main reason I used to play 3 Needle in the sideboard. But I am getting more and more convinced that for the standard list 2 Jittes SB are not too bad especially for the mirror or against R/W.

Your last question is exactly what im thinking about currently because I saw a lot of successful list lately that didnt play Stifle for more creatures like different Faeries, more Folks and Jitte. So Merfolks seem to be at least to a certain degree interchangeable between different approaches without loosing competitiveness.

@Duke: Thanks for sharing this report with us. I read it with pleasure. My most funny play during the last tournament was when I played The Rock and his life points are at 3 so he tries to Vindicate his own Confi not to die eventually in his upkeep. I can misdirect (hardcast) Vindicate to some other target so that Confi may live on. Unfortunately he just draws into another Swords and I die in the same turn ;)

@Ummmyeh: Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a pretty funny sideboard inclusion for the mirror. Me likes.

/* EDIT*/ Bah someone was seconds faster then me ;) /*EDIT*/

georgjorge

03-10-2009, 09:07 AM

Nice job merpeople! Those are much better showings than I would have expected after just reading coverage on the event. I thought merfolk crapped out on people after only seeing 1 list of them (which had the faeries).

There were 10 Merfolk decks on Day Two, making it the third most successful decktype after CounterTop (not Thresh) and Goblins. ANT had 10 as well, while stuff like Landstill, Aggro Loam or Thresh had less people making Day Two than Merfolk.

Piceli89

03-10-2009, 11:10 AM

There were 10 Merfolk decks on Day Two, making it the third most successful decktype after CounterTop (not Thresh) and Goblins. ANT had 10 as well, while stuff like Landstill, Aggro Loam or Thresh had less people making Day Two than Merfolk.

I remember also that there's one list which looks totally AWFUL that went into the top16 on day 1 trial:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23965
Counterspells 'n' Mishra's factories ftw guys !

_erbs_

03-10-2009, 11:20 AM

@Phoenix Ignition

Thanks for answering and giving infos. But at in no point in time i was thrashing the deck, when i saw the deck i said to myself this looks like a fun and strong deck to play thats why i was asking several questions, no need to be harsh in your replies.

I never said that the deck isn't good nor i've made bad comments about it. I just ask and gave some opinions of my own. Sorry if my statements was too noobish.

@Nekrataal
Thanks for answering and giving infos.

Today i was able to test the deck here where my thoughts on it.

This is just me...
- Stifle + Wasteland + Rishadan ports + Tidal Warrior is good enough to delay your opponents.
I used 4 stifles, 3 wasteland, 3 rishadan ports and 3 tidal warrior
- Wake Thrasher - I was very surprised at it, i never expected it to be so good. Maybe 3 is right number for this guy.
- I didn't use mutavault + standstill in my test, i felt i lack the draw but for the mutavaults it seem ok even without it.
- Once your opponent has landed a countertop lock its so hard to recover after a board sweep.
- I was wondering aswell if countertop could fit in.

Nekrataal

03-10-2009, 12:46 PM

This is just me...
- Stifle + Wasteland + Rishadan ports + Tidal Warrior is good enough to delay your opponents.
I used 4 stifles, 3 wasteland, 3 rishadan ports and 3 tidal warrior
- Wake Thrasher - I was very surprised at it, i never expected it to be so good. Maybe 3 is right number for this guy.
- I didn't use mutavault + standstill in my test, i felt i lack the draw but for the mutavaults it seem ok even without it.
- Once your opponent has landed a countertop lock its so hard to recover after a board sweep.
- I was wondering aswell if countertop could fit in.

I wouldnt run Ports AND Warriors. Decide for one option. 1-2 Ports could be squeezed in I guess as well as 2 maybe 3 Warriors but not both. But then ... that is up to you. Many ppl have tested Ports and Warrior and didnt recommend this configuration, although at least warrior is getting some more love lately.

Thresher is good most of the time. Against burn though I usually board him out. Mutavault + Standstill + Vial is just too good not to run it. It won me a lot of games because three extra cards is just good and once you have the slightest board advantage it is not a rare occasion you drop a second Standstill right after the first one. Of course there are matchups where it sucks but this is about 20% of the field max and still then it might be playable if you get a good start.

CounterTop of course is very hard. If you expect a lot I would think about playing Spell Snare instead of maybe Daze or Stifle in the SB.

CounterTop in Merfolk? I dont see it. For the lack of draw you would have to play at least 4CB/3SDT. For the lack of Fetchlands/Brainstorm/Ponder CBT is situationally worse then in Decks build for it because you cannot shuffle your Deck to have a better choice of topdeck cards. Last but not least it takes up 7 slots you just dont have. A major issue imho also is that you have not enough spell backup to protect CBT. You already have to care for your folks and that no harm comes down on them. Decks like Baseeruption do not rely on having several beaters out. Merfolks do. At least you would like to have 2-3 beaters out on the board and keep your counters for removal or potential blockers or danger cards liek Moat/Choke/CB ans so on. CBT would need a much more controllish deck which condradicts the philosophie of Merfolks imho.

Forbiddian

03-10-2009, 03:28 PM

Hello,

...1. The decks defense is mainly mana denial via:

Merfolk are really crappy creatures. Nobody is arguing with you that we'd rather they'd printed Elves or Goblins in Blue.

They didn't, though. The only other things in blue are the stuff in Faerie Stompy and the stuff in Faeries. I think that Merfolk are better than those, primarily because of Islandwalk, but also more stable mana base and a deeper early-game decision tree.

Merfolk aren't entirely horrible, but in any other color, they would not ever see play. Ever. Even if Merfolk were White, which has mediocre dudes anyway and great support would not be able to make Merfolk playable.

The primary advantage that Merfolk has: Access to Daze, Standstill, and Force of Will. Our defense against almost everything that you said is: Daze, Standstill, and Force of Will. And then Stifle or Spellsnare, usually.

If you ignore that, you really have no clue why we'd bother with Merfolk. Mana Denial is not the first, last, and only line of defense. Compared to every other aggro deck (except some weird Zoo variants and FS/Faeries which I discussed), we have counterspells.

I'm not sure that makes up for the bad creatures, but it's definitively the edge that Merfolk has on the rest of the competition.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-10-2009, 03:55 PM

I finished 44th with the following list:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Standstill
2 Repeal
1 Umezawa's Jitte

6 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

3 Sower of Temptation
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Back to Basics
3 Divert
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Rd1-2 Byes
Rd 3 Mirror 2-1
Rd 4 ANT 1-2
Rd 5 UGWr Countertop 2-0
Rd 6 Dredge 1-2(scooped to a friend instead of drawing)
Rd 7 Ub Dreadstill 2-0
Rd 8 UGRb Countertop
Rd 9 Dredge 2-0
Rd 10 Loam 2-0
Rd 11 Goblins 0-2
Rd 12 Team America 2-0
Rd 13 Mirror 0-2
Rd 14 UGr Dreadstill 2-1
Rd 15 Burn (asked opponent to concede so I can build points and he obliged)

Just curious, man... Are you the dude I smoked cigarettes with and shared lists with?? I'm not totally sure you are, because I don't remember seeing Llawan in the sideboard... But I do remember that dude I talked to was main-decking Repeal, and had some number of Jitte in the sideboard...

I'm starting to think that you're not the dude I was chatting with... But, just to get all "Craigslist" on you for a second: Me: skinny dude from Mississippi, goatee, wearing a black bubble-goose jacket... You: also rather slender dude, full beard, played against my friend Guy's Burn deck on Day One, I think...

*Anyhow, congrats on your finish... You're confirming my suspicion that this deck gets infinitely better odds of a good finish if it has a few byes so as not to have to play against the scrub-decks (Like for example, who in hell, besides my Round One opponent, still plays Meathooks??? WTF)

EDIT: @Forbiddian: I don't think it's so much that Merfolk are bad creatures, it's just that there aren't enough of the good ones. I mean, yeah, they're Blue, so they sort of have to be comparatively worse than if they were like, Green...

But I'm hoping that in the next block after this whole Shards nonsense, Merfolks keep getting more of that Lorwyn-block-lovin'. Or, if they were to somehow print a sequel to the Planar Chaos set, let me give this humble suggestion: Merfolk Lackey!!!!!!!!!!

Piceli89

03-10-2009, 04:41 PM

But I'm hoping that in the next block after this whole Shards nonsense, Merfolks keep getting more of that Lorwyn-block-lovin'. Or, if they were to somehow print a sequel to the Planar Chaos set, let me give this humble suggestion: Merfolk Lackey!!!!!!!!!!

Keep dreamin', dude, keep dreamin'....

Smog

03-10-2009, 04:57 PM

let me give this humble suggestion: Merfolk Lackey!!!!!!!!!!

No. God no. No more lackeys. Not now. Not ever.

whosyourdaddy

03-10-2009, 04:59 PM

@Duke:I don,t really think merfolk could get much better(besides printing of merfolk lackey, which, unfortunately isn't going to happen, i guess;p)
Even if they printed some good folks what are you going to cut?

Standstill? - without CA it would suck anyway...
Vials? - not cutting it for obvious reasons
Fow, Daze? - this little disruption really makes it (arguably) aggro-control.
You won't cut those(or you could as well switch to goblins;P)
...which leads us to cutting critters. Most of us run about 18-22 and 16 of them are more or less agreed to be the auto-4-of core.

So I guess in the end you could squeeze 4 of some good 'new' merfolks, but would that change a lot? Or maybe it's just grumbling me...

Anyway, I've just started with the deck and yet I'm quite optimistic, not very experienced though. I'm currently looking for some way to improve the aggro matchup. Have any of you guys, used Jitte during the gp? How was it working for you?

Nekrataal

03-10-2009, 05:43 PM

Forbiddian

03-10-2009, 05:56 PM

@Duke:I don,t really think merfolk could get much better(besides printing of merfolk lackey, which, unfortunately isn't going to happen, i guess;p)
Even if they printed some good folks what are you going to cut?

Most every creature played in Legacy would instantly be a 4-of and MVP in Merfolk if it were a Merfolk and blue.

Tarmerfolk.
Nimble Merfgoose.
Dark Merfolkonfidant.
Vodalian Dreadnought.
Spellstutter Merfolk.
Merfolk Blossom.

Merfolk are pretty bad. With the exception of Lord of Atlantis and (maybe) Cursecatcher, everything is easily replaceable with a card that they could legitimately print. Also eyes open for blue changelings.

1U for a 2/2 with a good ability or a mediocre ability and a combat ability (First Strike, Haste, Pro Red, Pro Green, Flying, Bushido, or Lifelink and I'm sure I'm missing some) would certainly find a home. They could easily print that at any time and it would make Merfolk much better.

Note how it's about -1/-1 compared to what would be considered playable for a non-blue creature.

For cuts: Anything can get the axe next to a creature like that up to Lord of Atlantis. Again: The myth that Merfolk is somehow a tight deck. I don't even get where that comes from, there's not a lot of synergy outside of "We're moro-colored" and the Tribal element.

_erbs_

03-10-2009, 10:28 PM

I wouldnt run Ports AND Warriors. Decide for one option. 1-2 Ports could be squeezed in I guess as well as 2 maybe 3 Warriors but not both. But then ... that is up to you. Many ppl have tested Ports and Warrior and didnt recommend this configuration, although at least warrior is getting some more love lately.

Thresher is good most of the time. Against burn though I usually board him out. Mutavault + Standstill + Vial is just too good not to run it. It won me a lot of games because three extra cards is just good and once you have the slightest board advantage it is not a rare occasion you drop a second Standstill right after the first one. Of course there are matchups where it sucks but this is about 20% of the field max and still then it might be playable if you get a good start.

CounterTop of course is very hard. If you expect a lot I would think about playing Spell Snare instead of maybe Daze or Stifle in the SB.

CounterTop in Merfolk? I dont see it. For the lack of draw you would have to play at least 4CB/3SDT. For the lack of Fetchlands/Brainstorm/Ponder CBT is situationally worse then in Decks build for it because you cannot shuffle your Deck to have a better choice of topdeck cards. Last but not least it takes up 7 slots you just dont have. A major issue imho also is that you have not enough spell backup to protect CBT. You already have to care for your folks and that no harm comes down on them. Decks like Baseeruption do not rely on having several beaters out. Merfolks do. At least you would like to have 2-3 beaters out on the board and keep your counters for removal or potential blockers or danger cards liek Moat/Choke/CB ans so on. CBT would need a much more controllish deck which condradicts the philosophie of Merfolks imho.

For me Tidal warrior has both offensive and defensive tricks (Letting your thrasher go all the way via islandwalk. Slight mana delay for your opponents)

If you go for the standstill + mutavault combo for sure you'll not run rishadan ports because you'll have lots of colorless mana in the deck, now only giving you 3-4 wasteland 3-4 stifles i didn't add the tidal warrior bec it could still be used as a colorless mana. Another thing for me that doesn't fit it is the priority of casting spells would be most likely to be 1> vial 2> standstill 3> stifle. Nothing wrong with that expect you can't hit your opponents fetch lands early on and slow them down, well assuming you draw a stifle early on.

When your opponent cracks standstill more or less he has several solutions to your threat. This is just me but i think your opponent is okay letting you draw 3 cards so that he could setup his defenses killing major threats (LoA or Wakethrashers) buying him more time to control the game or to setup. Nothing wrong also in drawing 3 cards. But the longer the game gets the weaker the deck becomes but thats just me, I still have insufficient game time using the merfolk deck.

@Forbiddian
Yes your correct that Countermagic is an edge comapred to other aggro decks. But counter silvers has a similar kind of defense expect for the mana disruption. There creature aren't that big aswell compared to merfolks

____________________________________________________________

As for the contrilsh version of the merfolk deck. Just wondering why would you make contrilsh version of the merfolk deck

elof

03-11-2009, 03:15 AM

Another thing for me that doesn't fit it is the priority of casting spells would be most likely to be 1> vial 2> standstill 3> stifle. Nothing wrong with that expect you can't hit your opponents fetch lands early on and slow them down, well assuming you draw a stifle early on.

Jupp, this basicly is the point. Let say that you would go for Stifle fetchland. You start, play Island go. Your opponent plays fetch, suspecting Stifle so he says go or plays another land in his hand. The point is that against a good opponent, you will never get to stifle early fetchlands. With a starthand that has Vial+Standstill, why whould you want to waste turns getting the cards out there? Unless your opponent plays Daze, just try to put them out asap. With both vial and standstill in play, unless your opponent played a monster turn 1/2 he is forced to crack Standstill, getting you 3 cards. With those 3, and a vial at 1/2, there should be no trouble outracing him, keeping your Stifles for fetchlands (even if you opponent has 1-2 lands here, keeping him off 3-4 is really really good, especially since you have Daze) and for sweepers.

If my main goal was to destroy lands, I would have played Team America or something, not folks.

If your opponent cracks Standstill and you draw 3, why does he have several solutions to your threat? And what are those? If he has STP, play a new guy. If he has EE, stifle. Can't understand your logic here.

Forbiddian

03-11-2009, 04:38 AM

An ideal situation is when you can strand a Brainstorm or obviously midgame after Wasteland nullify a color. If I can't do that, I generally don't try to stay open for Stifle. Although it's a ++ move, mana screwed opponents usually don't fetchland when you have U open and they even suspect you stunted your development to avoid tapping out.

Since I don't aggressively try to stay open, Stifle's not as useful for me, but staying open hasn't been a consistently solid play for me.

@Forbiddian
Yes your correct that Countermagic is an edge comapred to other aggro decks. But counter silvers has a similar kind of defense expect for the mana disruption. There creature aren't that big aswell compared to merfolks

Uh, maybe I'm missing something, but what's your point? Slivers are not Mono-U. I'm really not following you.

_erbs_

03-11-2009, 04:41 AM

Jupp, this basicly is the point. Let say that you would go for Stifle fetchland. You start, play Island go. Your opponent plays fetch, suspecting Stifle so he says go or plays another land in his hand. The point is that against a good opponent, you will never get to stifle early fetchlands. With a starthand that has Vial+Standstill, why whould you want to waste turns getting the cards out there? Unless your opponent plays Daze, just try to put them out asap. With both vial and standstill in play, unless your opponent played a monster turn 1/2 he is forced to crack Standstill, getting you 3 cards. With those 3, and a vial at 1/2, there should be no trouble outracing him, keeping your Stifles for fetchlands (even if you opponent has 1-2 lands here, keeping him off 3-4 is really really good, especially since you have Daze) and for sweepers.

If my main goal was to destroy lands, I would have played Team America or something, not folks.

If your opponent cracks Standstill and you draw 3, why does he have several solutions to your threat? And what are those? If he has STP, play a new guy. If he has EE, stifle. Can't understand your logic here.

If your opponent suspects that you pack stifle + wastelands he will never good a hand with 2 fetch or 2 non basic land becuase he fears that his lands might getted stifle non basic gets wasteland. Thus forcing him to mull to maybe find a basic or something he could work around it.

For multi colored decks its a pain for them when they are under that burden (this is just me) especially when they run lots of fetch and 1-2 basic lands only.

Im just guessing almost all decks uses fetch lands when his a combo or control a early mana disruption is bad for them. And also giving your daze longivity (well this is just a minor plus)

I know that stifle + landstill + vial can run all together but you'll loose and gain something.

If you go this route... (assuming you still use stifle and your up against multi colored decks)

landstill + vial + mutavaults chances are you have no rishadan ports, wasteland maybe..

the impact of stifle is not that big compared to

stifle + rishadan port + wasteland because all of them could hit his mana base.

If you could slow your opponent down for a certain time frame even with just 2-3 critters could bring his life to a low level that cracking a fetch will have a bigger impact on his life.

As the previous topic was about stifle to mb or sb it i guess it all depends on the player or the build for me atleast. If i was to run the mutavaults + landstill i'll drop the stifles for something else...

@Forbiddian
I was just stating that countermagic is part of the merfolks defense just like slivers, because i forgot to add the countermagic aspart of the defense of the deck in my prevoius post

Forbiddian

03-11-2009, 05:01 AM

If your opponent suspects that you pack stifle + wastelands he will never good a hand with 2 fetch or 2 non basic land becuase he fears that his lands might getted stifle non basic gets wasteland. Thus forcing him to mull to maybe find a basic or something he could work around it.

Again, what's your point?

If he suspects Stifle+Wasteland, he's going to mull that (although I can't imagine ANY Legacy deck thinking their average 6 card hand is likely to have 3 land, so I can't imagine that anybody would shuffle a hand up based on "only" having two land in the starting 7; a better example would be Land+Ponder/BS or Fetchland+Mishra's Factory with a hand reliant on two colors). But even if he mulls your personal decision to run Stifle (if you so choose) did not cause that mulligan.

In fact, the ideal would be not to run Stifle+Wasteland against someone who suspects Stifle+Wasteland and to run Stifle+Wasteland against someone who doesn't suspect Stifle+Wasteland.

By running Stifle+Wasteland, you don't increase the probability of your opponent suspecting Stifle+Wasteland. And even if you did reveal Stifle (or not) by games 2 or 3 to change his expectations, you only improved your opponent's knowledge. Now he can make more intelligent decisions to your detriment.

Causing potential mulligans is not at all related to actually running Stifle+Wasteland, merely a result of the expectation of your opponent. If your opponent suspects Stifle, you're slightly better off not running Stifle. By contrast, if your opponent doesn't expect Stifle, running Stifle is slightly better than it otherwise would be.

But in general, it's hard to understand you since you often simply cap a sentence off by writing the wrong word (or horribly misspell words), and don't finish your thoughts, so I might be making a dumb strawman. Still, it's worth pointing out that your choice to run Stifle didn't cause a mulligan anymore than your determination caused you to win the die roll.

elof

03-11-2009, 05:58 AM

I must agree with Forbiddian as far as the spelling goes. I had a real trouble time reading that and I know my english is not top of the line (it's not my native language).

I often SB out Stifles unless I know that they are good against my opponent and never do I base this on "he has fetches". Keeping Stifles just because I can mana screew my opponent doesn't make me want to keep it in my 60 cards after SB. (However, if he has EE/Deeds/etc I will keep them)

Skeggi

03-11-2009, 06:35 AM

In an attempt to improve the Goblin match-up, would this be any good?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/100.jpg

And yes, it's a Merfolk :smile:.

Phoenix Ignition

03-11-2009, 06:59 AM

Since I don't aggressively try to stay open, Stifle's not as useful for me, but staying open hasn't been a consistently solid play for me.

Or your mom.

sorry.

I know that stifle + landstill + vial can run all together but you'll loose and gain something.

landstill + vial + mutavaults chances are you have no rishadan ports, wasteland maybe..

You have to look at it from a different aspect though. There are plenty of decks where mana disruption doesn't do enough. Sure, running ports over mutavault provides more land disruption, but you give up Standstill. Actually, merfolk used to run that land setup just 4 months ago, but after realizing how good mutavault is with the deck, we have almost unanimously switched. There are plenty more decks where Standstill + Mutavault is going to help more than extra Stifle/Daze + Ports.

Causing potential mulligans is not at all related to actually running Stifle+Wasteland, merely a result of the expectation of your opponent. If your opponent suspects Stifle, you're slightly better off not running Stifle. By contrast, if your opponent doesn't expect Stifle, running Stifle is slightly better than it otherwise would be.

The problem here is that many people watch your game as you play. Maybe Stifle + Wasteland can stay hidden for your first round match (but that's saying you don't hit either of these), but for sure people will be playing around it as you play on in a tournament. Maybe not with 1200+ people, but in your local metagame with 20 people, I'm sure word will spread. That makes it worse at the end of the tournament than at the beginning.

That being said, if you're making an opponent with 2 lands mulligan their hand, I would always always always put that card in my deck, whatever they're so scared of, even if you never play it.

@Skeggi:

That card actually looks pretty sweet. It's got all the cool factor of Qasali Ambusher, but might actually be usable. I'm gonna try some sideboard on MWS for a while. 1/3 isn't great, but he has a big butt and can take out first turn lackeys.

elof

03-11-2009, 07:03 AM

In an attempt to improve the Goblin match-up, would this be any good?

I have glanced over it once of twice but the main thing is that it's horribly weak in offense (only 1 in power) and it still doesn't block Piledriver. It doesn't block Nacatal but does however block Kird Ape. It's also good against Lackey, but other than that... does it do anything?

EDIT: It doesn't have flash so you can't surprise block anything...

Mantis

03-11-2009, 07:16 AM

Merfolk needs to get Jitte going in order to beat Goblins. The only other way is to out aggro them, which isn't an easy task. If you play defensive with Legate, Piley, Siege Gang and Ringleader will kick in.

landstill101

03-11-2009, 03:07 PM

quick question since I have not seen any talk about this at all, where are the 4 brainstorms????

Durzaan

03-11-2009, 05:23 PM

Most of the builds I've seen, including the one I run, don't have any shuffle effects. It seems like brainstorm would be a pretty underpowered card in this deck, especially as a four of. I wouldn't waste slots with it

Finn

03-11-2009, 11:27 PM

You can't really count on Jitte doing the job against Gobs. All of our guys die easily to Goblin removal, and this deck has no acceleration for playing and equipping it quickly. The only time Jitte works for me vs. Gobs is when you manage to counter all their early stuff. When we both have nearly empty hands from this sort of start, and I can still protect my guy for the turn that I play and then the next when I equip/attack, it works. That actually happens from time to time, so it isn't unreasonable. But Goblins really has the goods on this deck from their own vials to mountains of removal to pro-red beaters. And Jitte is a hard solution to manage. I don't see the bad matchup situation changing with Gobs with or without Jittes.

ACMaverick

03-12-2009, 12:04 AM

elof

03-12-2009, 02:13 AM

What do people think about Sygg, River Guide and a white splash? It's nice to give pro to Wake Thrasher to swing for the win, and the built in Islandwalk is pretty sweet too. Path/Swords becomes an option as well. To run him you might need another two lands and fetches though. Thoughts?

We been over him before a couple of pages back. Please read up on that first. Splashing white isn't wrong, but do it for Stp and Mirror Entity.

Skeggi

03-12-2009, 04:33 AM

quick question since I have not seen any talk about this at all, where are the 4 brainstorms????
In a deck with Fetchlands I presume. Probably some Counterbalances in there as well.

Nihil Credo

03-12-2009, 12:40 PM

We been over him before a couple of pages back. Please read up on that first. Splashing white isn't wrong, but do it for Stp and Mirror Entity.
... and sideboard Absolute Law. It's been only been mentioned in passing in this thread, but as long as the deck keeps having trouble against Fire/Ice and Goblins, it's about as good a tool as you can find.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-12-2009, 02:54 PM

... and sideboard Absolute Law. It's been only been mentioned in passing in this thread, but as long as the deck keeps having trouble against Fire/Ice and Goblins, it's about as good a tool as you can find.

Actually, Warmth pretty much PWNS Absolute Law... if you were to ask me. Not to mention I'm pretty sure Blue Elemental Blast, Hydroblast, and Chill are all better options also, and in our primary color.

I mean, honestly, is what we're worried about in the Goblins match-up really their ability to block our creatures??

Nihil Credo

03-12-2009, 03:05 PM

I mean, honestly, is what we're worried about in the Goblins match-up really their ability to block our creatures??No. It's your ability to block theirs (and live). Same way CounterSlivers used to beat Goblins.

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-12-2009, 04:33 PM

No. It's your ability to block theirs (and live). Same way CounterSlivers used to beat Goblins.

Well, you have a point. This still does nothing about the five thousand pound elephant in the room that is Piledriver and his pro-blue though.... I suppose at least Mirror Entity would give us an additional blocker for him besides Mutavault.

Personally, I'm going to start testing a white splash version on MWS, but I'm not totally sure what to expect out of it. Does it seem worthwhile to y'all for me to squeeze in Brainstorm, since I'm obviously already going to be running about six fetch-lands?

elof

03-13-2009, 02:57 AM

Does it seem worthwhile to y'all for me to squeeze in Brainstorm, since I'm obviously already going to be running about six fetch-lands?

Yes! Brainstorm is nuts! The only reason we don't play it is because it needs 5-6 fetches :/

memnarch

03-14-2009, 03:26 PM

instant is good here because we already have stp, stifle perhaps even spell snare could make a fit.

Yan

03-14-2009, 05:55 PM

Hi!

I played merfolks today in a tournament today, 29 attendants. I went 3-2 and got 8th... I kind of hoped there would have been top 8 because belcher got 1st.

My list:

3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
12 Island

4 Merrow Reejeray
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergil adept
4 Cursecatcher
2 Wake Thrasher

4 FoW
4 Stifle
4 AEther Vial
3 Daze
2 Relic o Progenitus
2 Echoing Truth
4 Standstill

SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Echoing Truth
3 Divert
3 Propaganda
3 Hydroblast
3 Pithing Needle

The meta game looked like it could have been really great for me, well quess how many blue decks I faced....? Yes, only one.

1st Round against Axel with Survival Elves:

Fist game I have 3 cursecatchers by turn 2 and ad 3 merrow reejerays by turn 4... it was already over by that time.

Next game he completely destroys me, he has more guys and they are bigger than mine so I lose really quickly.

Third game I get lucky with a really agressive hand and manage to win, 3 lords if I remember correctly. This was a really hard matchup and I was really suprised that I managed to win this one.

1-0 (2-1)

2nd Round against Mikko with Ugr Threshold:

Peace of cake for me. Relics do their job both games and islandwalk him to death. This was the only good matchup they gave me all day and I can't see how I could have lost.

2-0 (4-1)

3rd Round against Risto with Domain Zoo

Thanks, really nice matchups. First game his 1 mana critters kill me before I can do anything and tribal flames finishes me. Next game I'm able to kill his lands and give enough time to build an army and ride to the win.

Third was more or less a copy of the first one, no chance really.

2-1 (5-3)

4th Round against Ari with Burn:

First game game was really odd and I really felt that I should have lost but I got really lucky draws and ride 2 merfolks to victory with a force backups.

Second game I have all the tools from the SB but even that is not enough and I get burned away.

Third game I get lucky again and land 2 lords on the field with 2 Fows and a Hydroblast in hand... next draws were another Hydro and a Fow so no problems.

3-1 (7-4)

5th Round against Matti with Rb Goblins:

Another horrible matchup. But miracles happen and I piss of his land base in the first game and proceed to win from there. I side everything relevant in but thats really not enough to stop him in the next 2 games... I even had needle for vial and hydro for lackey in both games but it just wasn't enough

3-2 (8-6)

It was really fun to play this deck and I'm not dissapointed at all. I managed to win 2 bad matchups and fight a 2-1 loss against the 2 other bad matchups. The room was full of nice matcups for the deck but I just wasn't lucky to get to play those...

Sek'Kuar

03-14-2009, 06:26 PM

I jsut wanted to bring up the point that with Magic 2010 there is the rumor that mana burn will be eliminated. As someone that has never played merfolk, but has lost to it, Wake Thrasher has always been potent. Without mana burn, it becomes even more ridiculous. Does this one change mean that the deck will be even more competitive? I realize its only one card, but we have seen one card drastically change a format time and time again.

Forbiddian

03-14-2009, 09:56 PM

It's only a small part of our deck. I haven't really had problems with tapping out, and just mana burning myself is usually ok in most MUs.

There are some matchups/situations where it might save you some life that matters, but I think that Stompy decks benefit more from the potential change.

Stompy players and newb players with no stylistic sense.

Sek'Kuar

03-14-2009, 10:06 PM

Yeah. I didn't really know, I've only been steamrollered by it, I've never piloted it. I usually play Golden Grahams, which is nice for me too, because if someone fizzles my combo, at least the mana wont kill me!

whosyourdaddy

03-15-2009, 08:16 AM

It's only a small part of our deck. I haven't really had problems with tapping out, and just mana burning myself is usually ok in most MUs.

Hmm, can't you activate mutavault and then activate it again while the first ability is on the stack and so on... tapping out all of your lands?
I'm not sure if it works that way, but it would be nice...

Also Can you activate vial and then just choose not to put any creature into play just to tap it?

Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Finn

03-15-2009, 08:39 AM

Hmm, can't you activate mutavault and then activate it again while the first ability is on the stack and so on... tapping out all of your lands?
I'm not sure if it works that way, but it would be nice...

Also Can you activate vial and then just choose not to put any creature into play just to tap it?Yes, and yes. But I have taken mana burn in the past just to get a bigger Wake Thrasher since those options are occasionally not around.

elof

03-16-2009, 10:13 AM

Phoenix Ignition

03-16-2009, 10:19 AM

I was thinking, if I play in a meta where there arn't much graveyard-decks but still some Aggro-Loam, what card could I replace Relic with that is good against Loam but still isn't dead vs the rest of the field?

Suggestions?

Back to Basics if they're stupid and don't pull basics out. Uhhh... maybe some sort of Sower of Temptation, those usually wreck Aggro Loam.

Actually, you could play that Faerie hybrid that went undefeated day 1 of GPC... once it gets going you'll counter every LftL they try to play on you. I still haven't tested it so I can't tell you how great it will be, but results speak for themselves.

Jujuhawk

03-16-2009, 10:41 AM

I was thinking, if I play in a meta where there arn't much graveyard-decks but still some Aggro-Loam, what card could I replace Relic with that is good against Loam but still isn't dead vs the rest of the field?

Suggestions?

I cut 2 relics from scotty barentines day 2 list (friend of a friend) for a 3rd stifle and a 2nd jitte. My meta has loam as well, and I feel like the matchup is fine as long as you draw your basics and get an aggressive enough draw (2 lords, etc). Post board I bring in 2/3 b2b's, relics, some ammount of REB effects (2/3)

elof

03-17-2009, 02:52 AM

Just putting it out there but... Seal of Removal, yes/no?

Phoenix Ignition

03-17-2009, 05:14 AM

No, the 1cc is no better than the 2cc echoing truth (especially with CotV in some maindecks). Plus E truth lets you bounce Seismic Assault (which = instant GG against 2/2 folks) or Moxes if you get a good mana denial trend going. Or even double creatures if they get that lucky.

Also, not going to happen usually, but they have burning wish for Hull Breach to kill a sitting Seal of Removal if it's actually that big of a problem.

elof

03-17-2009, 07:53 AM

Wasn't considering it in place for ET but the point is proven.

Played som games vs goblin and I went something like 1-4 (0-2, 1-2, winning before SB). I had 3 Blast, 2 Jitte, Needels and more but I still didn't manage to get past those pesky goblins. Any suggestions to other SB hate?

Jujuhawk

03-17-2009, 08:34 AM

Wasn't considering it in place for EE but the point is proven.

Played som games vs goblin and I went something like 1-4 (0-2, 1-2, winning before SB). I had 3 Blast, 2 Jitte, Needels and more but I still didn't manage to get past those pesky goblins. Any suggestions to other SB hate?

5UBlasts. The matchup is awful, and I'm pretty sure that's your only chance.

ssilver

03-17-2009, 05:09 PM

Or counter lackey/vial and then it turns out they only have one land in hand :wink:

Jujuhawk

03-17-2009, 05:53 PM

hope they suck

DukeDemonKn1ght

03-17-2009, 06:56 PM

5UBlasts. The matchup is awful, and I'm pretty sure that's your only chance.

Honestly, I'm not even sure if bringing in 3 Blue Elemental Blast, 2 Hydroblast would be enough against Goblins.

I can tell y'all from testing on MWS a bunch, playing Merfolk at GP Chicago (albeit using a list with no dedicated red hate in the sideboard-- maybe a mistake in retrospect), and having looked everywhere for a solution, Goblins is the closest thing there is to a "Roll over and die" match-up for this deck.

I've found that a big deficiency of Merfolk in general is its tendency to have bad-to-terrible match-ups against other decks that seek to abuse Aether Vial (although I have to imagine we could take Death and Taxes at least (:rolleyes: ), haven't tested against them yet.) I've gotten beat by Meathooks, random "good stuff" Aether Vial decks, and although I've gotten a couple random game wins, I have never won an entire match-up versus Goblins.

Goblins is literally such a terrible match-up for us that I got all excited when someone proposed Sapprazzan Legate a while ago.

EDIT: Probably my best idea on the subject of beating Goblins (and not an idea that's mine originally) is to pack 3 or 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought and one copy Trickbind (as Stifle backup) in the sideboard. This isn't quite "hot tech against Goblins" specifically, but it seems like one of the most solid ways for this deck to have a good generalized sideboard strategy for beating other Aggro decks that are simply quicker than we are.

b4r0n

03-17-2009, 07:02 PM

Rood

03-17-2009, 08:41 PM

Ever tried E-plague in the sideboard for Goblins lol? Maybe that could work. Also good against Elves and Faeries.

Jujuhawk

03-17-2009, 10:04 PM

If you were to splash a color, you could make the Goblins matchup much easier. White or green provide some pretty good options (Sygg/Absolute Law in white, Goyf in green) but that means that you have to change your manabase accordingly.

Seems like it's just better to just have 4/5 UBlasts, and pray they don't draw the stones. I have 5 blasts mostly because of burn(/goyfsligh) anyway. I think the manabase is so stable that there's no real reason to wreck it.

_erbs_

03-18-2009, 03:43 AM

Absolute Law is nice or other white enchantments but the problem is that since the deck don't run brainstorm or other cantrips (just guessing) the adds of getting it is slim.

I think its much better to boost the decks aggro power rather than splash color. The dreadnought is a nice idea or a couple of shapesharer for more lord effects or of a copy of dreadnought

Elvish-Champion

03-18-2009, 06:59 AM

My favourite list is:

12 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Rejeerey
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Umezawas jitte
2 Wake Trasher

What do you think about that?
Pls send me some suggestions to improve my build:smile:

Nekrataal

03-18-2009, 08:17 AM

Honestly, I'm not even sure if bringing in 3 Blue Elemental Blast, 2 Hydroblast would be enough against Goblins.

I can tell y'all from testing on MWS a bunch, playing Merfolk at GP Chicago (albeit using a list with no dedicated red hate in the sideboard-- maybe a mistake in retrospect), and having looked everywhere for a solution, Goblins is the closest thing there is to a "Roll over and die" match-up for this deck.

I've found that a big deficiency of Merfolk in general is its tendency to have bad-to-terrible match-ups against other decks that seek to abuse Aether Vial (although I have to imagine we could take Death and Taxes at least (:rolleyes: ), haven't tested against them yet.) I've gotten beat by Meathooks, random "good stuff" Aether Vial decks, and although I've gotten a couple random game wins, I have never won an entire match-up versus Goblins.

Goblins is literally such a terrible match-up for us that I got all excited when someone proposed Sapprazzan Legate a while ago.

EDIT: Probably my best idea on the subject of beating Goblins (and not an idea that's mine originally) is to pack 3 or 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought and one copy Trickbind (as Stifle backup) in the sideboard. This isn't quite "hot tech against Goblins" specifically, but it seems like one of the most solid ways for this deck to have a good generalized sideboard strategy for beating other Aggro decks that are simply quicker than we are.

I found that the best remedy for curing your Goyfsligh and Goblin matchup is exactly THIS (Dreadnought). You have a fair chance of pulling the trick Turn 2 or 3 or buy some time before you do it. It surely is a surprise game 1 because these days both decks do not pack Artefact hate main usually. Game 2 though you have to expect 3 Krosan Grip. So either you have to be really fast or really lucky or do the trick twice. UNfortunately Meroflks do not have a CB/Top to provide more protection against Grip.

xsockmonkeyx

03-18-2009, 10:20 AM

4 Mutavault
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendillion Clique

Riptide Laboratory might be a cool addition with all those Wizards. Not sure how practical it would be though.

Jujuhawk

03-18-2009, 10:55 AM

Riptide Laboratory might be a cool addition with all those Wizards. Not sure how practical it would be though.

Very. Gaudenis Vidugiris played 3 in his day 2 list, and it seems totally insane. Keeping vial @ 2, with riptide lab/SSprite seems very unfair.

Elvish-Champion

03-18-2009, 11:43 AM

Maybe, but i think that u have to beat the enemy very fast so that you don't have enough time to riptide these casters.
But good idea i will test it for some matches
:laugh:

georgjorge

03-18-2009, 12:15 PM

I found that the best remedy for curing your Goyfsligh and Goblin matchup is exactly THIS (Dreadnought). You have a fair chance of pulling the trick Turn 2 or 3 or buy some time before you do it.

Just mentioning...according to the MWS Statistical Analysis, you have a 30 percent chance to get Stifle + Nought, and an 8 percent chance to get Vial + Nought + Nought, on or before turn four. Those don't exactly add up, so I'd say the overall chance for a turn four Nought is about 35 percent.

bokepa

03-18-2009, 01:13 PM

This is what i've runnning with good success:

12 Island
3 Riptide Lab
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
3 Silvergill Adept
4 merrow Reejerey
3 Spellshutter Sprite
3 Selkie Hedge-Mage

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Standstill
3 Stifle

SB
3 BEB
2 Hydro
2 Relic
2 Tormod
1 Stifle
1 Standstill
3 Echoing Truth
1 Mutavault

I would really like to get 4 of all, but thats imposible.

You can keep vial at 3 or at 2 depending on the situation. Remember you can bounce your own creatures to save em from combat!!

Getting attacked by 2 goyfs, vial selkie in: bounce one and block the other to just return it to your hand with lab is priceless.

SB needs more tuning i know.

Troin

03-18-2009, 06:26 PM

Hi everyone!
This is my first post at the source so i'd like to start it presenting myself (now that I still have a chance). I am Troin, i've been playing merfolks for a very (VERY) long time and I'd like to share my experiences with merfolks for the past.... 14 years? Yes i know that might sound somewhat *NOT TRUE* but let me tell you the story before you decide,as i'd like to share my experience with all of you.

My experience with merfolks started when my brother and I played Magic for the first time. 4th edition had just been released ( back in april 1995 ) and my brother and I were learning to play the game. I was roughly about 8 years old so you can imagine what kind of magic we used to play. The thing is a few years later, when we had nearly forgotten about magic he had designed a deck... well , not a deck really, it was very casual but I could never win it. It must have been something like this:

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Manta Riders
4 Tidal Warrior
3 Lightning bolt
X Thundermare
X Counterspell
2 Lightning
and so on... it was an :u: :r: deck i really got into. I never got to beat him and became obsessed with the idea of running a merfolk deck.

Years passed and I kinda forgot about magic until all of a sudden they became extremely popular in my school. (I guess I had something to do with it because I left a few of the cards to a friend of mine who told an other friend who told an.... ) I had forgotten about merfolks and had a very rapid elf deck with titania's priestess, river boa and recycle. It was kinda fun deck. But i got somewhat bored of always winning with it to the kids in my class (who by that time played rebel decks, and green stompys who couldn't beat me). So i decided to go on to something more casual... (just imagine how poor the level was back then ) and I remembered my brother's deck. By that time i knew cards like Force of Will and Morphling (my favorite creature card by then) existed. so I designed my first merfolk deck, which must have been something like this:
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Manta Riders
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Merfolk looter

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Forbid
4 Arcane Denial

3 Morphling
4 Brainstorm ?
21 lands?

the deck was stolen a few years later by someone i trusted...
and that deck did pretty well. I never bought the force of will, they were very expensive at that time so I used proxies. I remember I could have bought them to a guy who sold very cheaply at the time by 1000 pesetas, which are roughly about six euros today, but I bought the morphlings instead, and I didn't wan't to spend money on dual lands. Legacy yet didn't exist, so it was more kind of an "old extended" deck which is pretty similar to the format today. Again i must insist this was all casual, non tournament playing nor nothing . But i really liked the deck and this idea would help me a lot to develop new skills and new decks in the future. By this time planeshift had just been released, and I fell in love with Meddling mage. (tho i never bought them because they were very expensive... lol now i have one DCI Foil :P)

time passed again and I kind of forgot about magic until i entered college and saw 2 people playing magic. I thought to myself "hey!! I could play again !!" and brought my green elf deck (which by the way had been lost over the years and I had only a little part of it, so I had to reinvent and proxify it :P).

I suddenly got involved with an ongrowing magic playing community which grew rapidly and better every day. I decided to make my elvish deck real, so I bought a few savannah (now I DID have money) and started to create an elvish "competitive" deck. I went to a tournament thinking I was going to win everybody because my deck was soo good and strong and comboed sooo rapidly... i won't enter into details of what the deck had, but i used glimpse of nature and staff of domination.

Obviously i lost 3 rounds in a row after winning my first match. So i discovered that deck wasn't stable nor powerful. I got a bit depressed with it and thought of many ways to improve it until on the next tournament i played i made top 8. yet i lost against landstill and I thought this wasn't enough.

So i started to think about it. ¿How could my deck get any better? And i ended up quitting the deck and started to plan my own deck. I remembered the old merfolk ideas and with some money the idea came out by it's own! I started to test it with some friends and it worked really really well. By that time Solidarity, Goblins and 3hold were the clear winners in legacy. My decklist must have been something like this.

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Galina's Knight
3 Tidal Warrior
3 Merfolk Traders
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Standstill
4 Daze
3 Umezawa`s jitte
3 stifle

4 Mishras factory
4 Wasteland
.... and something else. i remember having energy flux and meddling mage on sideboard.

The deck worked really well. I learned many tricks with aether vial and standstill, which gave me killing advantages on the game. I learned the advantages of using standstill and aether vial as well as it's disadvantages.

i went to a serious tournament with a friend of mine who played an expensive foil very well played Turboland and.... GOT FIRST in it with him!!! both of us reached to the top. And it was quite a big tournament. about 59 people playing and i won against pikulas, burn, goblins, goblins, fish ... I loved that tournament, it was probably the best tournament I have ever played and when both of us reached the final... it was astonishing.

i made top 8 on several other smaller tournaments and then the format started quickly evolving so I decided to swap to a normal fish with spiketail hatchling, meddling mage, ninja of the deep hours and so on. the basics were the same, but it grew better because i didn't need a lord of atlantis to win.

I then built myself a solidarity deck, which did poorly, i started playing extended, first with tog, then with trinket angels, then with tron and currently i am still using tron :P, but that's another story.

in legacy I built myself a counterslivers deck when planar chaos came in. It looked so familiar to merfolks, but this time I had 2 creatures that pumped the other kids. I realised how important this was and wished some day they reprinted an other lord of atlantis ( time would prove my wishes to come true!).

the thing is i did well with counterslivers, tho the mana base was slightly worse. I was about to win a tournament when they stole that deck from me.. DAMN, i've lost so many decks to thiefs.... I also got my solidarity deck stolen somehow at the valencia pro tour, but that's another story.

I quit magic for a short time, i wasn't planning on wasting more money on it. I started playing extended without a will to play legacy... at all.

until lorwyinn came in... and I saw Merfolk Merrow Reejerey with glittering eyes and thought to myself "what if??"

So i tried to test legacy decks in MWS. First 4c landstil which i found to be boring, then 3hold which i found very expensive... Then a sort of DreadCombo which focused ONLY on playing stifle + Dreadnought. (long before dreadstills started to appear).

and I always wondered "what if I built myself a merfolk deck?"
my friends told me it would be crap, and that aggro at the time must have had tarmogoyf or goblins goblins goblins.

I started testing, firstly a legacy adapted version of an extended merfolk version I was testing, wich counterbalalance + sensei's divining top. This deck didn't work quite well so i looked at the early goblin versions I used to play against, and decided I could build a deck that did exactly the same. So i started pulling and pulling ideas. I created an exact match. For every goblin I tried to find an exact merfolk or a nearly as good as blue card. I got the idea that wasteland + rishadan port + stifle could really fuck things up for my oponents. (and it does). I realised aether vial was supreme and that I could match or nearly match goblin warchief with merrow reejerey. A few tests later I thought of the deck as good enough and started buying all the cards. My first testings against some friends of mine were quite disappointing. Then I went to my first tournament and...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20010

yes! I won it! It helped me so much having played merfolks earlier on to start realizing so many gameplays, like not playing aether vial on turn one against 3hold to stifle their first land, or not fighting a counterwar over an aether vial and use my fows to protect my lord of atlantis and merrow reejerey. Back then I didn't manage to get my rishadan port so I used mishra's factory. Which did the job pretty well. I found them to be astonishingly more powerful than mutavaults

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Juan+Vilar

those are some of the lists I played later on. until the last version of it which as a small white splash for sideboarding.

i learned many tricks and that is the deck i now use with extremely good results. With it i've won a Mox Jet, a Mox Emerald, a Mana drain, 200 euros 4 tarmogoyfs and i'm currently the champion of the Alcantarilla anual legacy tournament, which is one of the most importants in the south of Spain.

Why am I boasting about these triumphs? Don't get me wrong! The thing is what i learned with merfolks is that it's not only about the deck you play, but how carefully you play your spells. With merfolks you cannot commit mistakes. The good thing about merfolks is there are really no competitive cards that can screw you up as a sideboard (other than merfolk assassin and I doubt i'll ever see anyone playing that shit). But there are many decks that can pull you around if you fool with your countermagic. Never underestimate your enemy with that.

What I realised is that merfolks play better (at least in spain) if you bother the other person's mana base. That's why tidal warrior, stifle or rishadan port are always my favourite cards to play. I also realised You cannot play without wastelands.

And finally i realised blue is not exactly the best color to sideboard. For instance, i see many people using back to basics in their sideboard. But normally this is not useful. Why? decks that could be killed using btb are mainly landstill, 3hold, the fear, team america and maybe loam. Those decks you don't need to sideboard in order to win, as they normally are slightly a GG when playing against them.

Your merfolks are very very fragile, when playing against experienced players, you have to be very careful, your lord atlantis will be blown up to fractions if you countered that first tarmogoyf. keep your countermagic and instead of avoiding them to play tarmogoyf with counterspells, be creative, wastelands, tidal warriors and rishadan ports (if you use them, i strongly suggest you do) are a good way of avoiding the green mana from being "green mana" on their first turns.

there are so many things i'd love to discuss with merfolks.
here's my list
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Tundra
4 [P2] Island (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [SH] Tidal Warrior
4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 [B] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WL] Serenity
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

something I also learned is that many people side "hidroblast" or BEB vs red. I am not very sure, but in my meta, 80% of the chance I play vs red decks and I loose. Hidroblast isn't enough. I rather go for definitive lock killing cards like circles of protection or serenity.

Sideboarding is something very important. It's not about "how many cards you can sideboard" but about "how many cards can you take away from your deck to sideboard without noticing it!" White is an incredible splash for this deck.

And one last thing... Fetchlands. ALWAYS use fetchlands, they really really make the difference!!

well, i gtg, but i'll share some other opinions later on this week.
hope you enjoy!! cya!!

Jujuhawk

03-18-2009, 06:30 PM

Cold-Eyed selkie seems clunky and slow. Especially with fetches (missing 3rd land drops, etc.) I think this deck can't use them because it opens you up to stifles on the draw, and you don't have cantrips to make up for the low land count becoming lower from fetching.

Media314r8

03-18-2009, 07:58 PM

Just mentioning...according to the MWS Statistical Analysis, you have a 30 percent chance to get Stifle + Nought, and an 8 percent chance to get Vial + Nought + Nought, on or before turn four. Those don't exactly add up, so I'd say the overall chance for a turn four Nought is about 35 percent.

This seems just absolutely terrible. As both a goblins and a merfolk player, (goblins more often and for a longer period, admittedly) by turn four goblins will have found a way to get a tin street hooligan or a goblin tinkerer (just the worst for you) to kill your naught. Fortunatly for you, tin street must be cast to kill naught, so you can counter it, but a vialed in tinkerer will really put a damper in your parade, completely invalidating your standstills, (by killing your vials) ending the naught plan, and acting as a sit-around force spike for your relics. Almost all mono R, Rg, Rb, and Rgb play at least one tin/tinkerer main, and possibly stingscourger in mono and Rg. I would not waste sb space on something that just *might* get there and could be stopped dead by a vialed-in critter in a deck with four d tutors and 4 fact or fictions.

I speak from experience with goblins: give up the nightmare MUs, (like combo for goblins- unwinnable outside of a fast prowled squad or a T3 godhand) and dedicate your SB slots with improving your other, winnable MUs.

AcidFiend

03-18-2009, 08:45 PM

How does Port go against Goblins? I can't see it working really..

Either you play guys and don't have mana for port/counters, or you leave yourself open and 'hinder them' for a couple of turns, probably taking some small beats as well. Meanwhile they can get around mana issues with Lackey/Vial. And its just another non-basic to be wastelanded/Price of Progress/Blood Moon.

Nekrataal

03-19-2009, 07:38 AM

Just mentioning...according to the MWS Statistical Analysis, you have a 30 percent chance to get Stifle + Nought, and an 8 percent chance to get Vial + Nought + Nought, on or before turn four. Those don't exactly add up, so I'd say the overall chance for a turn four Nought is about 35 percent. Maybe but this of course ADDs to the already low chance of about 20%. So if we define this 35% as a win, then we would be about 55%. And Please keep in mind, that I can bring in more enablers Game 2. Come into play Goblins usually pose no problem because you should of course have more counter backup then they have artifact hate game 1. Game 2 though is different because Grip is bad news. Honestly I havent tested a lot against Goblins because it is almost not relevent in my meta and I also do not dedicate specific SB cards like Propaganda. However I have tested A LOT against Boros and Goyfsligh and the matchup is greatly improved with Dreadnoughts. For you have about 2-3 free slots in the general Merfolk build the Noughts usually fit in if you are willing to play 4 Stifle. My sideboard is expecially dedicated to maximize the possibliity of playing a Dreadnought as early as possible with a Merfolk non-dedicated Nought build compared to Dreadstill or Dreadfolk. After having tried a lot of card choices Noughts have been the only means to really improve the above mentioned matchups significantly. Kira, Blasts, Chills didnt do the trick.

memnarch

03-19-2009, 10:59 AM

Check out this merfolk banner I made!

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k256/djgiga4/merfolkbanner.jpg

Troin

03-19-2009, 01:23 PM

vs goblins port is especially useful if, and only if, they didn't manage to get aether vial on the firs turns. Their CMC 3 like warchief ,matron, sharpshooter, and cmc 4 like goblin piledriver makes this especially annoying for all of them :-). Your Dazes become so good in this pairing.

ofc if they got aether vial out it's pretty much a useless card.

memnarch

03-19-2009, 06:57 PM

Chill is good vs red. I have had much success. Especially teamed up with mana denial. Being half control if you board in 4 they will start stacking up and make things very difficult even for burn. Honestly now days I'm thinking about boarding that AND hydroblast/blue elemental blast. Red is definitely your enemy.

johanessen

03-19-2009, 08:47 PM

Im testing this sideboard (monoblue with mana denial)

4 Disrupt (mainly against combo, but is ok against any decks, especially when tidal warrior-MDx2 is useless)
4 Submerge. (AggroLoam, Threshold, Rgb goblins. Nice sinergy with Standstill)
2Hydroblast+2Red Elemental Blast (Burn, Gobbos, Some kind storm, Dragon stompys and such, Self explanatory)
3 Relic of Progenitus. (Thresh, Aggroloam, Ichorid, Survival, Maybe Geddon stacks, etc)

I'd like to include Umezawa Jitte and Mind harness. Maybe i change 2+2 for the 4 submerge, but 4 submerge speeds the deck quite a lot.

Thoughts.

BTW Main Deck is;

// Lands
3 [MOR] Mutavault
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
12 [B] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [A] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
2 [SH] Tidal Warrior

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [WL] Disrupt
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I'm not sure about Rishadans Port but they "combo" with wake trasher

Glorfindel

03-20-2009, 03:50 AM

How does Submerge have a nice synergy with Standstill? If you pay nothing for playing a spell, you're still playing it ...

elof

03-20-2009, 03:56 AM

I think he means that he can bounce opposing critter (goyf?) and then play Standstill without having to EOT Truth it. Also, submerge must be nice when your opponent cracks Standstill.

3duece

03-20-2009, 11:13 PM

Word. Also, your Alien 3 sig is amazing.

elof

03-22-2009, 02:27 PM

Thank you :D I'm a huge fan of Aliens (and in some lesser extent Predators). My favorite movie off all time is the first Alien movie so I guess it's not a big surprise that I used to play Slivers. And when I deceided that the manabase was to expensive for it, merfolks was the closest blue tribal deck :)

@Topic: I'm going to play a single elimination tournament now, well keep you updated on each game. Wish me luck! (I will post decklist after, don't want to give away anything here before ;))

MoonDark

03-23-2009, 07:51 PM

Hi guys, I play some other decks and I'm interested in playing merfolk. Seems so powerful atm. Pardon my ignorance, but, what hurts this deck?!

Really, what are the problematic matches ?

johanessen

03-23-2009, 08:17 PM

Aggroloam, Survival, basically decks that doesnt run islands, since is a meta-deck

TheAardvark

03-23-2009, 08:42 PM

I actually played the format for pretty much the first time in over a year on Saturday, and ended up splitting 1st/2nd with Merfolk. Pretty standard list, although the SB is a little different.

4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejery
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Wake Thrasher

4x Daze
4x Force of Will

4x Standstill

4x Aether Vial
2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Mutavault
3x Wasteland
2x Mishra's Factory
13x Island

SB:
4x Annul
3x Hydroblast
3x Stifle
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Tormod's Crypt

A quick recap:

Round 1--Solidarity

I win both games due to Cursecatcher + Daze stopping High Tide from being relevant, with Vial powering out my dudes.

1-0

Round 2--B/R discard

I get hit with some early beats by Nantuko Shade and eventually trade with one of my guys. He keeps burning my threats, and we stall into the midgame where I get Jitte + random dork. He drops 3 Tombstalkers, but they all die in combat before I finally swing for the win. Game 2 he has less removal, but when we're both out of cards in hand he drops Engineered Plague, killing my Jitte-equipped Cursecatcher and leaving me with nothing. I eventually get Lord/Reejery and a Mutavault and dispatch him in short order.

2-0

Round 3--Counterbalance Painter

Game 1 I draw a Daze and no other disruption, and I get comboed out on turn 4. Game 2, I mulligan and have to keep an average hand with Daze again being the only disruption; this game is better, because I get comboed out on turn 5.

2-1

Round 4--UG Thresh

Nothing interesting here. Vial resolves both games, so I win. Nice deck.

3-1

Top 8--Thresh w/Progenitus combo

Same as above: Vial resolves and he has no answers to a flow of dudes. I find out after game 2 that he brought in 4x Pyroclasm from the SB and I had set myself up to be blown out, but he never saw one.

Top 4--Ichorid

Game 1 is dumb. He hits an Ichorid and triple Narcomoeba but never sees a Bridge and I am able to race with my army of guys + Jitte. Game 2 I keep a hand of triple Force, Daze, Cursecatcher, Silvergill, and Mutavault; I figure iof I can stop his early enablers, I can keep him off the gameplan and draw into good stuff. It almost works, but I don't draw an Island until the turn after he rips Breakthrough (for 0 off of his one land) after I spent my Forces on 2x Careful Study and a Breakthrough. I put up a fight but get overwhelmed. Game 3 is awk, as I get into decent position to race, but he has a Bridge + Ichorid and a couple of black creatures, with Stinky in hand and Troll in the 'yard. He looks at his graveyard, completely misses seeing the Troll, and scoops. I ask afterwards why he didn't dredge the Troll, and he facepalms. I'm pretty sure I win that game anyway, as his dredge would have been Narcomoeba + 5 irrelevant cards, and my next draw yielded Jitte, which would have done the job.

Finals--Counterbalance Painter

He wants to split so he can do get drunk, so I agree. Yay.

All in all, I was satisfied with the deck, as the only games I lost were to pretty much nuts draws by my opponents.

Just thought I would share.

elof

03-24-2009, 02:18 AM

Okey, the online tournament didn't go well. It was single elimination and first round pair up against Goyf sligh list from Chicago. Game one he plays Grim (I FoW), Kird Ape, Rift Bolt, Magma Jet, Grim, scoop.

Second game I win thanks to skill, relic and jitte.

Third game he drops t1 Nactal, t2 Nactal+Ape, t3 bolts, and finish me off with Fireblast+Pyroblast. gg.

So now I'm testing the faeriefolk list from Chicago. I really like Riptide Laboratory altough it gets wasted all the time :/ Any suggestions to the deck?

4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejery
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Spellstutter Sprite

4x Daze
4x Force of Will

4x Standstill

4x Aether Vial
2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Mutavault
3x Wasteland
3x Riptide Laboratory
12x Island

Nekrataal

03-24-2009, 08:01 AM

Aggroloam, Survival, basically decks that doesnt run islands, since is a meta-deck

*cough* since when is Survival a bad matchup? It is just the opposite. You just have to be fast and and don't let survival resolve or try to shut it down with Needle Game 2. You have GY hate main to shut down Goblin recursion. My matches against Survival have always been positiv although there are matches where they just manage to luck themselves into the lategame and then of course you stand no chance. Bad matchups simply put and as has been stated before are of the green/red typ.

@elof: GoyfSligh ... my dearest deck to test again :cry: BUT what seems relevant to me is that a lot of successful lists run main deck Jitte lately. I think that IS a point to notice.

elof

03-24-2009, 08:45 AM

Jujuhawk

03-24-2009, 10:52 AM

As have I noticed. I'm thinking about cutting main Relics for Jitte. But they are terribly slow sometimes and I don't like that. I want to play and equip the turn I play it other then when I have Vial turn 1 and jitte turn 2.

I like playing jitte mostly because of standstill. Standstilling with jitte out is usually just as insane as SStill/Vial. I only play 2 jittes though. I cut relic's for Stifles in my list.

Nekrataal

03-24-2009, 04:27 PM

As have I noticed. I'm thinking about cutting main Relics for Jitte. But they are terribly slow sometimes and I don't like that. I want to play and equip the turn I play it other then when I have Vial turn 1 and jitte turn 2.

I am undecided about Relics or Stifle. Although these build tend to play 20 Lands rather then 19. So -3 Relics +2 Jitte + 1 Land (maybe the 4th Mutavault). Ahhh I am not sure .... let's do a short analysis.

Relics helps against:

Dredge, Thres, Loam, TA and in general against Decks with heavy GY dependency or Goyf/Stalker usage. It helps quite fast but if you have to blow it (which happens often) you are pretty fast in now good shape anymore (so I tend to NOT blow it but sometimes you just have to). OK Jitte on the other side is much slower but if it sticks and you had the chance to attack just once your are in good shape because Goyf and Stalker can be shrinked in your favor and maybe chumpblocked. You can do the trick all over again. In addition Jitte is good in any creature heavy matchup plus it is good in the mirror.

Mh well I think this does not help much :( Guess I have to start playtesting again :)

Egokaite

03-26-2009, 11:55 AM

what about that card?

Arctic Merfolk
Creature - Merfolk 1/1, 1U (2)
Kicker-Return a creature you control to its owner's hand. (You may return a creature you control to its owner's hand in addition to any other costs as you play this spell.)
If the kicker cost was paid, Arctic Merfolk comes into play with a +1/+1 counter on it.

with vial you can save a dying merfolk and it comes in play 2/2, if the bounced merfolk is the adept you also can draw playing again the adept.
That's a nice trick--->your turn...merrow reejery and vial(2 counters) in play--->tap vial, play Adept+show Arctic Merfolk+draw a card.....tap 2 mana play Arctic Merfolk+Kicker on Adept, reejery trigger=stap vial--->tap vial play adept+show any merfolk+draw a card.

mujadaddy

03-26-2009, 12:11 PM

Kicker-Return a creature you control to its owner's hand. (You may return a creature you control to its owner's hand in addition to any other costs as you play this spell.)You're not playing the spell, you're putting the card into play with the Vial. I'm pretty sure that matters.

Egokaite

03-26-2009, 12:40 PM

mmm you're right...my bad...
Btw about stifle...i think i'll use that list on my next test

20 Creatures
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x LoA
4x Merrow Reejerey
2x Tidal Warrior
2x Wake Trasher/ or Kira MD

21 Spells
4x Vial
4x FoW
4x Standstill
3x Stifle if i play Kira MD or Divert if i play Wake Trasher MD
3x Daze
2x Echoing Truth
1x Relic

19 Lands
4x Wasteland
3x Mutavault
12x Island

S.B.
3x BeB
2x Back to Basic
2x Propaganda
3x Pithing Needle
3x Divert/Stifle
2x Relic/Tormod's

Actually i really don't know if playng 19 Lands is too much risk..i'll test on Saturday.....also i never played against Goblin so i don't know if 3BeB+2Propaganda+2/3 Needle(Lackey/Siege-gang and such) are enough to give me a chance....we'll see :)

Happy Gilmore

03-26-2009, 01:11 PM

Why has no one tried Waterfront Bouncer? And isn't btb just better in the main over stifle?

easyrider

03-26-2009, 02:33 PM

I split in the top 4 for an 18 person tournament last night. Here's my list.
4 Mutavault
3 Riptide Lab
13 Island
4 Cursecatcher
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 LoA
4 Reejery
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jitte
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Vial
4 Standstill
Sideboard:
4 Back to Basics
2 Jitte
4 Hydroblast
4 Relic
1 Echoing Truth

I went 2-1-1 and beat a team america player in the top 8. Have the Sprites been good for anybody? They were useless for me except for the fact that they fly with a Jitte. The Cliques were very good.

@ luckymartyr, nice job at the gp. Could you post your list? I apologize if it has already been posted.

Nekrataal

03-27-2009, 07:16 AM

Why has no one tried Waterfront Bouncer? And isn't btb just better in the main over stifle?
Part 1 has been answered a couple of times, please check the history. Regarding Part 2 BtB and Stifle do different things. Whereas Stifle has always the potential to screw an opponent early on together with Wastelands BtB is much slower and probably does nothing if the opponent fetches basics. BtB is just for very special matchups like Loam. In the later game Stifle is you swiss knife for a variety of situations.

I split in the top 4 for an 18 person tournament last night. Here's my list.
4 Mutavault
3 Riptide Lab
13 Island
4 Cursecatcher
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 LoA
4 Reejery
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jitte
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Vial
4 Standstill
Sideboard:
4 Back to Basics
2 Jitte
4 Hydroblast
4 Relic
1 Echoing Truth

I went 2-1-1 and beat a team america player in the top 8. Have the Sprites been good for anybody? They were useless for me except for the fact that they fly with a Jitte. The Cliques were very good.

@ luckymartyr, nice job at the gp. Could you post your list? I apologize if it has already been posted.

What about that trick that was hyped bouncing the Sprites with the Laboratory to counter endlessly? Didn't it work out?

@EgoKaite: I never had problems with 19 lands. Vial helps. Occasionally also Rejeerey.

Im currently testing a list with 2-3 Jitte main and full Mutavault playset (to support Jitte better). I also try out nounce mein (ET) instead of Stifle and a 2-Off Tidal Warrior as creature No 19,20 that I can switch with two Selkies when playing against U opponents. Just wanted to share my initial thoughts and experiences on it with you.

Jitte:
So far I can say that Jitte is doing very well. It gives the deck a minimum of creature control and much more options against creature/creature-heavy decks. 2 Jitte have been not enough and it often came too late so I play 3 right now. I found basically 3 situation how to play it: 1) Turn 2: I usually do that only if I have a Vial so I do not loose to much tempo or if I have a hand rather low on creatures (but with counterspells) so I can pump up my lonely critter. Turn 4,5: If I can play and equip with a reasonable amount of beaters out thats a good time. Never play it: Especially with Mutavault out and eventually a Lord you do not have the mana to pay for it because I 'd rather attack with Vaults than play Jitte.

4th Mutavault: Has been great except that I had to play with a proxy ;) Mutavault often is the biggest beater. Only Thresher is better.

Tidal Warrior: I know the complete Merfolk thread, so I know his strength and weaknesses BUT on the other hand I want to play 20 creatures at best 20 Merfolks. At lot of suggestions have been made, especially Kira is very valuable, but finding that she improves the Control matchup most, which is already in our favour, I have chosen Tidal Warrior for a second test round. This little guy is pretty useless against decks playing U, so I had this idea with 2 Selkies SB, that I can bring in when playing against U decks. Selkies with main Jitte can be great fun (like walking over and drawing 5 cards)! Selkies against non blue just sucks so they are SB material in my opinion. But back to Tidal Warrior. My experience so far is that he can impact games against Non U opponents if you have a damage race going. I once managed to race B Sui / Eva Green because my opponent didn't draw any removal. What he is bad at is screwing opponents. There was not even 1 game out of about 25 I have played so far with the new deck twists where I wanted to use him to screw an opponent because simply the situation didnt happen. Which reminds me of...

Stifle vs. Bounce: .... why I put off Stifle. It just does not stifle Fetchlands often enough. I like this card a lot but I wanted to have better creature/thread control. Stifle is great sometimes but often enough it was not. EE, Deed ...? I havent seen Deed a lot and EE which is more often played in DTB could also be countered. It also does not effect Mutavault, so you still have beaters and of course you should not overextend to loose to much permanenets to EE. So having that thoughts I put 2 ETs in the remaining slots and tell you what. They also suck right now. The just do not enough. Either you want to bounce nothing in particular or more then just one threat, or you can deal with the threat with Jitte or tap it with Rejeerey. Against Combo it might be cool to have it main but then it is also OK in the SB. Due to lack of better options it stays for the time being but maybe they just go back into the SB and Stifle comes back because stifling a fetch every 10th game is at least a very strong play.

BTW: With Jitte, Relic, Vial I am also thinking if Rootwater Diver could be a valuable inclusion.

elof

03-27-2009, 08:30 AM

Starting from bottom to top:

@Diver: Could be, also nice to bounce Needles from SB if they get put in there for some reason.

@Stifle: I have come to doubt that card more and more, especially since everyone seems to be playing around it and the fact that I most often after SB want Needels instead.

@Tidal: Don't know what to say really. With jitte in main, you don't really need to islandwalk win that much anymore. And to colorsrew an opponent.. not a big fan...

@Mutavault: I like to play 4.

@Jitte: Trying 2 i maindeck, I also like to play the way you play them.

@Faerie list: I been tinkering with that list for some time now. Managed to get the lock in at some points to. The hole problem with the list is the lack of synergi, either your playing folk's with splash for 1/1s or your playing faeries with a random (sometimes useless) wincon. I'm not really sure. I love Riptide Lab (however, it is sooo mana expensive that you need an early vial to get it to go smooth, and even then you find yourself with tons of cards because all you do is vial in Adepts and bounce and vial in again. If you get to this point, you win) and I love Spellstutter. Clique is awesome. Adept is the only reason why we need to play millions of folks really...

Nekrataal

03-27-2009, 10:37 AM

easyrider

03-29-2009, 12:35 AM

@ Nekrataal - The Sprite never really countered anything. When I was on the play, I would much rather play a creature like Lord or Adept, and it was usually lame when my only turn two play was a flashed Sprite countering nothing. When people realize that you're playing it, it is just about worthless because you're forced to counter relatively worthless stuff in order to get value out of it when you can. Maybe it requires a certain play style, but if it does, I don't like how it slows the deck down. Also, the lack of synergy is a problem. Sometimes, your LoA is useless because of multiple Sprites/Clique with it. The lack of fairies might be a problem, too.

@Stifle - It should only be used in metagames where it is always obviously good. Unless your playing against a ton of Lanstill or Combo, they should be real cards, like Jitte or more creatures. Also, what's the point in sideboarding them? There are definitely more powerful options than it.

Nekrataal

03-29-2009, 05:54 AM

Thanks for sharing your EXP. My current build right now is posted below. I stil have to optimize the SB because Stifle made it easier to come up with a sideboard plan. Now it is a little harder.

// Lands (20)
12 [MR] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures (20)
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
2 [SH] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [NE] Daze
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [SHM] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 2 [1OTH] Pithing Needle
Still some space ...

kicks_422

03-29-2009, 11:08 AM

Why are people cutting Stifles? Isn't Wasteland + Stifle + Cursecatcher + Daze mana denial synergy a good plan?

BackDr0p

03-29-2009, 12:34 PM

Why are people cutting Stifles? Isn't Wasteland + Stifle + Cursecatcher + Daze mana denial synergy a good plan?

I think it's that most people feel that stifle isn't doing enough for them. The meta has come to expect Merfolk and has learned to play around Stifle and Daze. Like others have said before, if they are playing around it is because those cards are doing their job. Just by having stifles in the deck allows for bluffs etc. slowing them down for at least a turn or two.

Piceli89

03-29-2009, 03:13 PM

I think it's that most people feel that stifle isn't doing enough for them. The meta has come to expect Merfolk and has learned to play around Stifle and Daze. Like others have said before, if they are playing around it is because those cards are doing their job. Just by having stifles in the deck allows for bluffs etc. slowing them down for at least a turn or two.

But still i'm not sure if they deserve a total cut, perhaps putting them in sb as a 3 -ofs against decks you know play massively through activated/triggered abilities (landstill for instance) and siding in in the 2nd game can provide the unexpected effect and further protection against certain cards which this deck needs. Against control, the lack of stifle can really hurt if a prepared opponent can concentrare its resources toward a game-breaking card ( deed for instance).

But, for the rest, everything you have said is true. People are just able to play around stifle cracking fetchlands in the right time, or anything similar. But stifling in the 2nd game a fetch or a mass removal, a thing they'd not expect not having seen stifle in the 1st game, could be way useful and advantaging.

BackDr0p

03-29-2009, 03:55 PM

Those are pretty much my exact thoughts. Stifle is a card that is more or less useful in practically every matchup. Running a stifle-less list will need some getting used to.

Merfolk is a tempo based deck running fast clock, counters and mana denial for the win. The lack of stifles will somewhat lower the effectiveness of most of the cards we use: Daze and Cursecatcher. Limiting the access a player has to a certain color is often game breaking in the case of UGW, UGR Threshold and Landstill variants as these decks depend on a certain color for removal.

Moving the stifle to the board seems like a decent alternative, making space for cards which are generally good on their own, instead of being situational: Umezawa's Jitte or additional bounce (i.e Echoing Truth).

matelml

03-29-2009, 07:14 PM

B
But, for the rest, everything you have said is true. People are just able to play around stifle cracking fetchlands in the right time, or anything similar. But stifling in the 2nd game a fetch or a mass removal, a thing they'd not expect not having seen stifle in the 1st game, could be way useful and advantaging.

Even if they try to play around Stifle with fetchlands, this usually makes Wasteland better. For example, if they fetch turn 1 instead of waiting, you can use Waste immediately, they can't use Brainstorm as advantagely, and have less info about what to fetch, which also makes fetching basics more risky and thus making manascrew more likely.

It's easily possible that you don't see a 4-of in a game, this shouldn't lead people to believe you don't play Stifle.

Skeggi

03-30-2009, 04:19 AM

Why are people cutting Stifles? Isn't Wasteland + Stifle + Cursecatcher + Daze mana denial synergy a good plan?
Often turn 1 Stifle on a fetchland is pretty good. But more often you want to play an Aether Vial or a Cursecatcher on turn 1.

Anyway, yesterday I played a Merfolk list in a 32-player tournament where I split first place (or 'volunteered' for second place, depends on how you look at it. Ofcourse I like to think I split first place, haha :wink:). Here's my list:

Maindeck:

1 Tidal Warrior
3 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

2 Stifle
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

2 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Standstill

4 Aether Vial

3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Island

Sideboard:

3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Echoing Truth
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Stifle
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Pithing Needle

Round 1: Louis de Nijs with GWB Rock.

I don't remember much about this match, except that I beat him game 1, and game 2 he dropped an Engineered Plague against me, but I still beat him with a Lord of Atlantis and 2 Mutavaults. I believe the best play was, when I had a Lord of Atlantis, a Merrow Reejerey and a Kira out, and he had a Kitchen Finks (with a -1/-1 counter) and something else with cc3(perhaps another Kitchen Finks, I'm unsure). He blew a Pernicious Deed@2, killing my Lord of Atlantis. He dropped another Pernicious Deed but was outtapped. Then he attacked. I only had my Reejerey and alot of mana and 3 Mutavaults on the table. I bounced his Pernicious Deed, so I could safely activate the Mutavaults to block the Kitchen Finks and Reejerey blocked the other guy, clearing the board except for my Mutavaults who would swing for the win later.
1-0-0

Round 2: Bart Holkenborg with UG Merfolk

Game 1: he beat me with Merfolk superiority and a Tarmogoyf while I only had Lords of Atlantis in my hand... great for giving your opponent's Mutavaults Islandwalk and make them deal more damage.

I think I sided -4 Standstill, -4 Aether Vial and -4 Lord of Atlantis to get +3 Phyrexian Dreadnought, +2 Stifle, +2 Llawan Cephalid Empress, +2 Vedalkan Shackles, +1 Echoing Truth.

I don't remember games 2 and 3 exactly, but I do know that I felt rather confident having Llawan Cephalid Empress. But she never showed. Game 3 I won because I wasted his Trop, he didn't draw another green source before my Dreadnought finished him off. He showed me a hand full of Tarmogoyfs and Krosan Grips.
2-0-0

Round 3: Peter van der Ham UGR Thrash

I lost both games. I lost the second one because I broke my own Standstill, which was a big mistake. Ouch.
2-1-0

Round 4: Jos van Doesburg with WGRB Zoo

Game 1: I'm on the play. Mutavault, Aether Vial, go. He drops a Badlands, Kird Ape, Go. I drop Island, Standstill, go. He grunts, and responds with a Lightning Bolt on me. Next turn he swings his Kird Ape, and drops no land. So I waste his Badlands and he scoops.

Game 2: He eventually has Jitte with some counters and a Vexing Shusher, he also Krosan Gripped my Vial, so it's not good for me. Topdeck: Vedalken Shackles. From there on it was pretty easy. I think I eventually killed him with a Dreadnought. I love Dreadnoughts. I also love Shackles.
3-1-0

Round 5: Jasper Boelens with Baseruption/NLU/Nassif's list-ish.

Game 1: He has a Dark Confidant, and I have some fishes. I waste a Tundra to keep him off his white. It works, I win.

Game 2: He tries to cast Dark Confidant, I FoW and waste his Underground Sea to keep him off his black. He swords a couple of my critters, but eventually he goes down. He revealed a hand with 2 Dark Confidants. I love Wasteland.
4-1-0

Round 6: Kasper Euser with UW Landstill.

After careful calculations we see we can ID to get into the top 4.
4-1-1

Top 4, Semi-finals. Peter van der Ham with UGR Thrash again.

Game 1: I beat him pretty easily.

Game 2: He had 2 Nimble Mongooses, a Pithing Needle naming Vial, and 6 cards in his graveyard. I have an Aether Vial (yay), Lord of Atlantis, Cursecatcher and Kira. I drop Standstill and attack with Lord of Atlantis, Cursecatcher and Kira. He plays Vendillion Clique, breaking my standstill. I draw into Stifle, Daze and an Island or something. He was outtapped and I had a Daze in my hand. I decide not to counter Clique because his Mongooses would gain Threshold and would kill my Lord of Atlantis. The Clique puts a Merrow Reejerey on the bottom of my deck and blocks Kira. But what Peter didn't know was that Clique also placed a brand new Kira in my hand. Next turn he swings with his 3/3 Nimble Mongooses and drops a Tarmogoyf I believe. I drop Kira while he beats me down, having to chumpblock Goyf with the Cursecatcher and Lord of Atlantis. Then, I draw a Phyrexian Dreadnought. I cast it, and Stifle the CiP ability. Everything resolves, but Peter doesn't look scared, while 1 swing with the Dreadnought would kill him, and he can't swing for the win because Phyrexian Dreadnought would block Tarmogoyf. In his turn he casts Repeal on Phyrexian Dreadnought. I point at Kira. He grunts, smacks himself on the head etc. I win. I love Kira. And Phyrexian Dreadnought! :tongue:

In the finals I met Kasper Euser again, but we decided to draw, as I only wanted 2nd price and he wanted first price (which was access to an invitational).

All in all I must say I really loved my sideboard. Every game I sided in the Dreadnoughts, the Stifles and the Shackles. And they really did me well. Kira is also very amazing, and needed if you play Dreadnought and want to keep him safe. The 1 Tidal Warrior was very unimpressive. I always wanted him to be something else, like Cursecatcher, or Stifle or Echoing Truth. So I may change that :wink:.

I didn't use the Pithing Needles all day, but I still wouldn't drop them. If I did have to play against Landstill, they would have been very needed against all sorts of Engineered Explosiveness or Mishra's Factories.

elof

03-30-2009, 04:51 AM

Quick question (will comment more later):
Why didn't you board in Needels in game one (Against deed)? Did he play top?

Anyway, congrats on your result! Great job!

Phoenix Ignition

03-30-2009, 04:52 AM

Congrats on the victory.

Good to see someone not dropping everything in this deck that I thought was good! (Kira, Stifle).

I agree about the Tidal Warrior... he looks good on paper but if you actually play with him it just isn't good enough.

Also glad to see other people with dreadnaught sideboards doing well!

How did Shackles turn out for you? I didn't see them in the tournament report, and you run 13 islands, which in my experience isn't enough to steal something good like a goyf.

One more thing. Did echoing truth actually win you any games you couldn't have? You talk about bouncing a Deeds so you can block with Mutavault, but obviously Stifle is much better in this situation. Thoughts?

Skeggi

03-30-2009, 04:56 AM

I didn't side in Pithing Needles because I kind of forgot about them back then, haha (I was like, "Let's try these Dreadnoughts!"). Echoing Truth has done quite some bouncing, also on double Tarmogoyfs and whatnot. Problem with Echoing Truth is, that when you want to bounce your own creatures to save them, and you have Kira, it doesn't work. Shackles won me the game against Zoo (grabbing the Vexing Shusher). In other situations they were pretty good too.

With Merfolk, I usually have the idea that at some point, it 'runs dry'. The deck is simply out of power. Having a Stifle in hand and topdecking a Phyrexian Dreadnought immediately restores that power.

Nekrataal

03-30-2009, 06:28 AM

But still i'm not sure if they deserve a total cut, perhaps putting them in sb as a 3 -ofs against decks you know play massively through activated/triggered abilities (landstill for instance) and siding in in the 2nd game can provide the unexpected effect and further protection against certain cards which this deck needs. Against control, the lack of stifle can really hurt if a prepared opponent can concentrare its resources toward a game-breaking card ( deed for instance).

But, for the rest, everything you have said is true. People are just able to play around stifle cracking fetchlands in the right time, or anything similar. But stifling in the 2nd game a fetch or a mass removal, a thing they'd not expect not having seen stifle in the 1st game, could be way useful and advantaging.

I am not sure ... usually Stifle is THE card that gets boarded out against a lot of decks for Game 2. So placing them in the SB from the beginning seems kind of odd. I think that you either play it main and take it as THE SB slot for bringing in more specific hate cards Game 2 or you just don't play it.

@Skeggi: Shackles seem interesting in the SB. I actually thought that Jitte is too mana intensive, but then Shackles just cost 1 more ... did you just use it in the one game or did it help more often during the tourney?

@Backdrop: I agree the ET hasn't been great main and I exchanged it with Relics already because I felt that they just does more especially do keep Goyfs small permanently. I could also go for Stifle instead of Relic but then Relic has been sooo good in a lot of matchups I had whereas Stifle has been just OK, every then and now getting a "big play" (Deed; EE). Jitte though is different. It allows U to have decent control over the board, to oppose bigger creature, to break stalemates, to gain some rounds against Burn while attacking for more, to still have a threat with just one critter remaining on the board and so one. Generally speaking: Not to run out of steam in several situations. And for you have Mutavaults you almost everytime have a threat you can equip it to.

So basically it boils down to this:

Current deck:

2-3 Jitte
3-2 Relic (no Stifle SB because I think that it is useless to keep a card SB you board out most often in the standard build. I am not a 100% sure of this because it surely weakens your Combo matchup ...)

Alternativ 1:

2-3 Jitte
3-2 Stifle => Sending Relics to the board (Possible, although 50% of the time I will SB Relics Game 2)

Alternative 2:
2-3 Relics => Sending Jitte to the board (I do not like this option)
3-2 Stifle

What would you choose in a Meta that is about 10% Combo, 60% Aggro and Aggro Control and 30% Control?

Skeggi

03-30-2009, 06:49 AM

I used it one or two more times. And there were occasions where I wished I had drawn it, but it just didn't show up. Also, note there is a distinct difference between Jitte and Shackles. It's not just that Shackles costs 1 more mana and requires Islands... I think Shackles is definately worth it.

elof

03-30-2009, 07:25 AM

Skeggi

03-30-2009, 07:41 AM

Shackels seems like it takes up alot of mana. And what if the opponent boards in Grips? Anyway, if it resolves it will win the game however.

@B2B: I find that I don't board in them alot and there not that good since often the opponent searches for as much basics as he can.

@Llawan: Can it be boarded in against anything other than the mirror?
You're very right. Krosan Grip is kind of a dealbreaker ofcourse. In fact, that's what happened against my first Shackles on his Vexing Shusher, but I drew another one. I also had a Threads of Disloyalty in my hand as a back up. Stealing creatures is really good.

B2B is something I'm thinking of putting in my sideboard since there are still enough match-ups where you really screw your opponent if one resolves. A friend of mine played Back to Basics MD and had Propagandas in his SB. They work pretty well together.

Technically you could board in Llawan against: Merfolk, Faeries, MUC and Imperial Painter (I guess also anything with Meddling Mages)... but it's really against the mirror. In the tournament I played in, there were at least 5 Merfolk decks present (and 2 made top4).

elof

03-30-2009, 08:06 AM

I guess Faeries and Folks are where it really shines. Will consider this one if I play in a very "blue" meta.

I really like stealing creatures to, trying out Mind Harness but it doesn't seem that good against goblins because they are so fast. I guess Shackels is gold in slower matchups but in the fast ones, do you really have time to drop it and steal?

Skeggi

03-30-2009, 08:23 AM

I originally included Shackles because I thought it could steal a Piledriver. I'm not so sure about that now, because Goblins can have insane speed. Shackles isn't exactly the fastest card, that's a fact, but Merfolk aren't exactly slow either. In most cases you can stall your opponent and then steal for the win. As I pointed out: it was golden versus Zoo, and I think it's safe to say Zoo is a fast deck.

Nekrataal

03-30-2009, 09:18 AM

Shackels seems like it takes up alot of mana. And what if the opponent boards in Grips? Anyway, if it resolves it will win the game however.

@Nekratal: Have you considered playing Kira? Our lists looks pretty much the same except I play 2 Kira (trying it out at least, been having troubles against alot of Swords lately) and 2 ETruth instead of 2 Cliques and 2 Jittes (have them in SB).

@B2B: I find that I don't board in them alot and there not that good since often the opponent searches for as much basics as he can.

@Llawan: Can it be boarded in against anything other than the mirror?

Opponents almost always board Grip because of Vial, so be prepared for it. BTW I found Trygon much more a nuisance. He is almost unblockable (flying) for us and destroys Jitte, Vial, BtB and other key cards. Therefore I think Clique is a good addition to the deck.

Actually I did play Kira for some time especially when playing my Dreadnaught version. It wasn't bad but having Jitte main I thought she doesnt fit anymore. Especially I would like to pull the trick with Selkie from the SB + Jitte. Also I think that Jitte fulfills some roles Kira did. Jitte also can protect your most valuable creature from some kinds of spot removal but in addition it can control the board and give back life points (which sometimes is handy).

Llawan isnt that bad but with a Vial out your opponent can be able to recover. On the other hand in the mirror all is about who is having more creatures out as fast as possible. So the bounce can be gamebreaking IF you draw into Llawan AND have the mana to play her. I am also thinking about integrating her into the SB because Merfolks seeing a lot of play because they have style AND are competitive.

Stealing creatures isnt that great against Zoo at least with Threads. In the best case the Zoo player has to waste a burn spell to his own creature. Stealing a Goyf of course is always good if you happen to play no Relics. However I like Shackles because you can permantly steal a creature and that is definitely a problem for Zoo becasue they effectively loose one creature per turn. Yeah probably it is slow at times but I still like the options it provides.

elof

03-30-2009, 09:51 AM

Nekrataal

03-30-2009, 02:44 PM

I don't agree with you on jitte protecting my critters. It does so against burn if I have gotten counters on it, but against Swords to Plowshares, the opponent will just sword it in respons to your activation of jitte. I also find myself sideboarding out Cursecatcher against goblins and such, so the targets for jitte goes down. Perhaps this is wrong, but there aren't that much targets for Curse in these matchups...

You are perfectly right. I just said "some kinds of removal". Actually I meant burn ;) which hurts most because an opponent usually has more than 4 to constantly burn your creatures. But still do you play Kira AND Jitte ?

I just checked out what Stifle targets are really good and not just one time shots. Apart from Fetchalnds and Storm so far mentioned was EE (Dreadstill, Landstill, MUC, Thres), Deed (The Rock, 4c Landstill, The Fear) and Oblivion Ring (Stax, Enchantress, Thres). OK arguing from that perspective Stifle would be most useful against Thres and Landstill archetypes. In general one could say U based control considering also MUC, The Fear and Dreadstill. EE will be much more often then Deed from the matchups and Oblivion Ring will be a 1 or 2 off max so rather rare. The question now is if the lack of Stifle really worsens the deck against its dearest enemy U based <insert deckname here> vegetable casserole and if e.g. Jitte can be take this place to pimp other matchups instead.

I think I will try out 3 Stifle / 2 Jitte split main vs. 2 Relics / 3 Jitte main next. On Sunday is the next big tourney (Iserlohn) and this will be a good testbed. ;)

BTW I also share the impression on BtB. Most of the times I sided it in my opponent went to fetch basics. As far as I remember it really won just 2 games (Loam, NGQ/r) in which my opponent was still able to do something but in the long run just had to fold. In my opinion it is almost an exclusive hate card against Loam and maybe 4c Landstill. All other decks play enough basics to play around it. So in the end although it looks great on paper it is maybe just superspecial tech like Hurky's Recall. Most valuable SB card so far has been Needle. It is just so good against a lot of matchups.

ACMaverick

03-30-2009, 03:14 PM

Stifle also stops cycling effects (such as making the tokens with Decree). I've had landstill matchups where my opponent planned on going all in with a Decree to block my guys and I just stifled the soldier ability.

Stifle seems useable in most matchups, and it's the perfect card to side out for better answers in games two and three of the matchups where it's not stellar.

Fyi, I've been playing a lot with the list that took 13th at Chicago and I really like the green splash for Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip. I know goyf isn't a merfolk, but I feel like he's a really good addition for the deck and leaving vial on 2 is usually pretty good anyway since it has mostly 2 drop creatures.

Paradigm Shift

03-30-2009, 10:07 PM

Went 4-2 at Hadley the other day, 14th on breakers out of 51, but i think 10 was 4-2 as well. Maybe I'll edit in a mini-tourny report later if anyone is curious how my stupid card choices worked out.

Decklist:

13 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Reejerey
4 LoA
4 S. Adept
3 Cursecatcher
2 Wakethrasher
1 Morphling

4 Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Jace Beleren

SB:
3 Back to Basics
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Propaganda
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Echoing Truth
2 Annul

The Jaces were amazing against White Stax when I played it, and were pitched to FoW a lot, which wouldn't have happened if they had been the Jittes or Relic I had originally had. Annul was awesome, and was included in my favorite play of the day.

I'm on the draw, it's my opponents (Ugr Dreadstill) 3rd turn. He has out trop, volc, factory, top. He casts Dreadnaught, I Annul, he Forces, I let force resolve. He then stifles naught, and I FoW pitching daze. He then taps top to draw his top card, and taps his last land to stifle again, and I daze.

I didn't really see Shackles or B2B when I sided them in, and I never played Goblins so Propaganda never came in, nor did I play Ichorid, which I wanted to, since I like my board vs. Ichorid.

The relics were great when I played against Goyf, which seems unsurprising.

I played

Stax, 2-0
Sligh, 2-0 (No idea how.)
Meathooks, 1-2 (I have a mediocre draw one game, and he gets the goods another.)
Burn, 1-2 (It's my friend Justin [Sunshine on the boards] and we are angry that we play each other for the third straight tourny.)
Nassif/Probasco Countertop, 2-0
Ugr Dreadstill, 2-0

rockout

03-30-2009, 10:16 PM

Went 4-2 at Hadley the other day, 14th on breakers out of 51, but i think 10 was 4-2 as well.

I know Jaynel and Myself finished 9th and 10th respectively and we were 4-2. Sadly no 4-2s made it. I must give you some props for vialing in a morphing. That is scary and totally unexpected.

Paradigm Shift

03-30-2009, 10:27 PM

I know Jaynel and Myself finished 9th and 10th respectively and we were 4-2. Sadly no 4-2s made it. I must give you some props for vialing in a morphing. That is scary and totally unexpected.

Haha. Yeah. I didn't want to scoop to Moat or other shennanagins game 1, and I wanted something that didn't die like Wakethrasher often does. Morphling was a beating for me all day, I won three games with him. I was never sad to draw the card, and even liked it in my opening hand. It won me my one game against burn.

Nekrataal

03-31-2009, 08:19 AM

See http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17284_Legacys_Allure_The_Merfolk_Breakdown.html

Nice summary article about Merfolks suggesting two new cards: Minamo, School at Water's Edge and Mirrorweave. Most notable thing for me that the proposed average list just plays 2 Stifle what is exactly the number I tested with yesterday to find out the right split between Stfile/Jitte/Relics (see posts before). With the exception of Tidal Warrior the list looks very solid. Mine just differs

-3 Tidal Warriors
-1 Daze

-1 Island

+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Jitte

+ 1 Wasteland
+ 1 Mutavault

assuming that I play 2 Stifle instead of 2 Relics main.

Regarding the new cards: Mirrorweave seems a little too expensive and do too little. To be effective it requires you to have a small army out already (3+ creature). If not Mirrorweave is just an expensive removal and I would rather play Snakeform. Minamo though is quite nice. I am not sure about playing it in my 12 Island build because I do not want to loose a single U manasource to Wasteland but in a 13 Islands build you possibly could play it along with 3+ Thrashers I guess. Usually this should be worth 2-3 extra P/T. It also could help to grow Thrasher on the opponents turn, when he usually is 1/1. I like that idea.

Phoenix Ignition

03-31-2009, 02:15 PM

I think the small portion of the time where the Minamo does anything is going to be far outweighed by having a less Wasteland/Price of Progress -proof deck. Sure it's okay tech with Wakethrasher, but I can't really think of any time where Wakethrasher has failed to be larger than whichever chump blocker the opponent has. Maybe there are times, but like I said, it's just one of those 1/100 chances that it will help, but there are plenty of decks with playsets of Wasteland, or playsets of Price of Progress.

Usually just making sure you tap your Vials at the end of every opponent's turn (draws out Stifles even when you aren't planning on vialing anything) is enough to pump up Thrasher.

Although on the bright side, he's no longer dead to 1 Mogg Fanatic... interesting.

elof

04-01-2009, 01:04 PM

Ah, fuck, totally missed that it can pump Wake whenever. Cool. Need to get me a pair...

zulander

04-01-2009, 09:09 PM

After reading the article I felt compelled to put up my list. I personally love 4 stifle/wasteland as it helps cripple mana bases and helps with tempo. I also liked the Minamo tech and decided to play one myself. Personally I also like Wake Thrasher so I upped him to 3, having him early on is crucial since that's when you're tapping out the most. I haven't decided on a full 15 for the board, but I've been thinking about 4 dreadnought and some blasts, but not sure what the other 7-8 cards will be. I'm not a huge fan of B2B but I see why it would be run in certain meta's, I just think something like quicksilver fountain would be a *cuter* card instead of b2b, but they fulfill different roles. Bah, not too many strong blue sideboard cards.

Mana: 19
11 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 19
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher

Artifacts: 6
4 Aether Vile
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Disruption: 12
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

Draw: 4
4 Standstill

Elvish-Champion

04-02-2009, 03:24 AM

This is my favourite list.
What do you think about that?
Spellstutter Sprite is very good and goes good against counters and Removal like StoP or so.

creature [20]

4 Cursecatcher

4 Lord of Atlantis

4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Silvergill Adept

4 Spellstutter Sprite

instant [8]

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

enchantment [4]

4 Standstill

artifact [6]

4 Aether Vial

2 Umezawa's Jitte

land [22]

12 Island

4 Mutavault

3 Riptide Laboratory

3 Wasteland

60 cards

Sideboard is a bit difficult, I don't know what to play best in there.

elof

04-02-2009, 04:11 AM

@Elvish:

I tried that list (or, a similar) and found that, although good many times, sometimes Spellstutter is just a flash 1/1. That is not very good. Sometimes your opponent has only 2cc, 3cc spells and you don't have a Mutavault. And I also found that Riptide gets wasted alot and when you mana flood, you lose.

Also, 16 critters that are folk is not enough for both 8 lords and for Silvergill.

Elvish-Champion

04-02-2009, 04:23 AM

zulander

04-02-2009, 06:50 AM

The first time you play spellstutter sprite (unless you have mutavault) you can only counter something that costs zero, and that's on your turn two, I just don't like that against combo. If you need help against combo than play stifle.

Phoenix Ignition

04-02-2009, 07:05 AM

"When Spellstutter Sprite comes into play"

Means that it is in play and counts for a faerie itself.

If you have no faeries on the board before you cast Sprite, he still can counter a 1 cc spell...

elof

04-02-2009, 07:21 AM

It also means that the opponent can kill the faerie itself, making it one less faerie around.

Elvish-Champion

04-02-2009, 07:36 AM

But for that he needs a removal, so that ur good meerfolks mybe survive:smile:

elof

04-02-2009, 07:49 AM

Yea, but in that case it would just be better to play a merfolk in the first place ;)

I like to deck and the ideá, but I havn't gotten it to work yet. Cliques are also really nice since you can play them in opponents drawphase over and over and over again with riptide.

Phoenix Ignition

04-02-2009, 10:13 AM

That's not really a lock though, seeing as you have no idea what card they are going to draw, and chances are they do with SDT...

I'm not saying it's bad, but it just seems like maybe swinging for 3 is better than trying to outsmart someone with faerie antics.

Edit:

Derrr I'm stupid, of course you can swing with it when you vial it in on their turn...

but a valid point is in response to you bouncing him they can StoP him.

elof

04-02-2009, 10:25 AM

Depending on gamestate, you can do both. If you have vial and riptide+2 lands you can just vial Clique in at the draw phase (of course this is not as good when the opponent has SDT), attack in your turn and then bounce it, replay it in vial and so on. Well, of course it isn't a lock but it's very effective against some matchups.

Nekrataal

04-02-2009, 10:57 AM

That's true, but it's even better than Wake Trasher, and you also have Umezawas Jitte to play.
I thought about putting Vendillion clique in it instead of Umezawas and I tested it with many success. They are also good for the Sprite.
Sprites also improve ur MU against Combo and or Goyfsligh, I played against goyfsligh without sprites, i lost nearly every game.
With them, it grants a 50/50 chance beat this deck.

Thresher is amazing so far. He finishes games quickly and fulfills a complete other role than Sprites (which are much more controllish). Unless you have a Vial out I usually do not have the mana open for tricks (its Daze and FoW we play for this reason). I think that the Sprite build can be compared with already sideboarded Misdirection/Divert that increases Sligh matchups a little. OK I know that there a differences but basically you rescue your folks from spot removal (either redirecting it or having another critter for attack). I wouldnt say it is 50/50. Jitte is far better in this matchup. I am not sure how often you can really pull the trick with recurring Sprite counters utilizing Laboratory. From the experiences shared so far it is not worth it. And I can imagine that is often far too slow before becoming online. You loose 3 slots to enlarge your manabase in addition.

Finn

04-02-2009, 02:56 PM

I'm wondering.

Is anyone actually thinking that tricks of this sort are worth toying with the creatures and lands after all the arguing we did last month? Or is this just brainstorming?

elof

04-02-2009, 03:52 PM

I see it as both brainstorming and also, the metagame is starting to adapt to merfolks and we need to diversify, change in the way that the metagame change.

I'm currently trying out alot of different things in order to see what is "best".

Forbiddian

04-03-2009, 02:17 AM

I'm wondering.

Is anyone actually thinking that tricks of this sort are worth toying with the creatures and lands after all the arguing we did last month? Or is this just brainstorming?

The deck looks pretty far from finished to me. The lack of consensus indicates this more than anything else. I think that some versions of Merfolk are better than others, but none looks really close to finished to me. Even the people most active in the thread are constantly juggling old cards or playing around with ideas.

It doesn't hurt to explore new ideas, and there might be some bombs waiting to be unearthed. It would have before the GP, when there was a deadline on a good list, but after the GP we have time to explore the ideas we think are cool and report back.

bokepa

04-03-2009, 03:50 AM

Nekrataal

04-03-2009, 05:54 AM

I have a small tourney tomorrow, and i dont know what to bring in the side of the shity cards i have.

Some of the expected decks are: Goblins, Painter, Suicidal Black Agroo, GW Beats, WW with Worship, Survival Elves, Burn, Reanimator, Thresh, Landstill

This is my list im fairly happy with even though i miss the wastelands, it's the SB im not sure of.

12 Island
2 Mutavault
2 Mishra Factory
2 Riptide Laboratory

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Sygg (black one)
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Selkie Hedge-Mage
2 Wake Thraser

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Standstill
2 Repeal

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Spell Snare
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Tideshaper Mystic (I dont have Tidal warriors)

Other cards i own i could switch:
2 SoFI
2 Selkie Hedge-Mage
1 Propaganda
1 Pithing Needle
2 Enginyered Explosives
4 Echoing Thruth
1 BEB
4 Energy Flux
4 Flooded Stand
1 Tropical island
4 Krosan Grip
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei divining Top
4 Counterspell
4 Sage of Fables
4 Merfolf banneret (can't remeber name)

I will post my matches when i can. So far in testing i have done well.

From the cards listed I would bring in Propaganda, Needle, 2-3 ET, BEB.

I had a small preparation tourney for Iserlohn yesterday with some friends. The Meta was Mono Black Sui, RGw GoyfSligh, Affinity so perfectly suited for being on top of the list for Merfolks (counted bottom-up). Guess where I landed in the end ;)

Actually only the games against Sui where close but in the end (after I lost the official rounds) we did some additional matches and it turned out to be 5:3 for him. Usually the first three rounds decided who took the win. Either I could survive his early disruption and counter his first threats or I could not. We had two quite close games where we actually hit the lategame. Both I could win because of Shackles and ET (bouncing Plague). I boarded out 4 Standstill and 2 Relics (no Tombstalker) against 1 Shackles, 3 Misdirection/Divert and 2 ET. Shackles is great for the late game I have to say, ET was valuable in this matchup as an additional combat trick to Vial. Divert effects where totally crap. I didnt succeed in playing them once on targets like Sinkhole or Discard. Why? Because neither I didnt draw then (obvious), nor I could play Divert because my opponent had enough mana to cope with Diverts. I did not have enough blue cards to pitch for Misdirection 2 times. Having said that I remember a discussion where exactly this has been stated in this very thread. My deck plays Jitte, Relics, Vial (9 artifacts), so having 6 pitch spells after boarding is just bad. Either I reduce main artifacts or ... lately I also seem to run out of luck getting presented reasonable targets for Divert, so maybe it is time to think about other solutions.

Goyflsligh which I intensly tested with my old Dreadnought and current Jitte Meroflk list was a total blow out. The first game I could drop an eraly Jitte but every creature was instantaniously burned so Jitte never came online and I was beaten to death by "Nacackl". Obviously my opponent had drawn in into a lot of burn spells. The second game took some time finally resulting in a lot of lands on both sides with no creatures out and me at 13 life. The sunsequent turns 2 Goyfs from the top win against my draw of Wasteland and Island. Mh so thats that for Jitte saving my ass against Sligh. Honestly I had wished back my Dreadnoughts from the previous list I played. I sideboarded 2 Misdirection/Divert again alongside with 2 Submerges I wanted to test. Out went 4 Standstills. Well I never saw the Submerges and the single Misdirection I could play to save one folk had to be directed to the head of the player. It would have fulminated on one of the Goyfs :cry: At that point I somehow regretted having taken out Stifle, not that it would have mattered but at least it leaves you with easier choices for sideboarding.

Affinity. To make a long story short. Game 1 he just combos me out. He has an insane hand and can land a Plating Turn 3 and equipp it to one of his 3 Ornithopters. BAM! Game 2 it seems that I can gain control after he had a good start again with two Needles naming Ravager and PLating, JItte and 2 folks out. The crucial play is when he casts a Master which I have to force and he responses with REB :/ So I face a 9/9 Beater I have to fold to a couple of turns later.

Ah well so everthing has to get better on the tourney. Hope to see some blue decks there ;) Will post the final list tomorrow after I have revised the sideboard (again).

Forbiddian is totally right. Iam still not happy with non U matchups so experiments have to take place.

lilrikki2000

04-04-2009, 03:56 PM

lorddotm

04-04-2009, 04:07 PM

Are there any countertop versions floating around? Right now this is what I am testing. It is good due to the card advantage and I rarely run out of steam. Also makes sideboarding easier since countertop isnt fit for some matchups.

Sidenote: for those who have jitte in their sb, when do you bring it in? other aggro decks?

Creatures
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher

Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 AEther Vial
4 Daze
4 Standstill

Lands
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
2 Mutavault
12 Island
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Echoing Truth
1 Propaganda
2 Back to Basics

What match-ups does CounterTop make better? I don't like the fact we are giving them more targets for Grips. Also, Top isn't as amazing without ways to shuffle, but that opens us up to disruption via Stifle, and we already don't run enough blue sources for turn 2 Lords.

CounterTop doesn't really fit this deck too well.

Forbiddian

04-04-2009, 06:44 PM

Countertop is a lot worse without Brainstorm/Ponder.

I'm unsure how great that deck would be. Not to mention just 13 U sources and only 19-20 mana sources total might make it fairly hard to guarantee the early game UU required and then enough mana out to abuse the top lock.

If I were devoted to Countertop, I'd probably cut more cards to try to get Brainstorms and Ponders to increase the chances of landing the lock first. At that point, I'd drop under the critical mass of Merfolk and I'd decide to just play Threshold.

lilrikki2000

04-05-2009, 01:42 AM

well it helps vs decks w/ low curves like thresh, elves, weenie, belcher, mbc, and ad storm...but after testing more...i c that it is useless

elof

04-05-2009, 01:13 PM

Also, It requiers fetches. I would never play it without at least 4 fetches, and that makes it 8-9 Islands only. So it would probebly need to change the hole deck.

stuckpixel

04-05-2009, 02:05 PM

Piceli89

04-05-2009, 02:24 PM

Bit of fun Tech from mtgsalvation (courtesy of dapoonk's decklist) for all you wake thrasher fans - Minamo, School at Water's Edge - basically makes your wake thrasher a nantuko shade.

The down-side is that it increases vulnerability to non-basic hate.

Is there a consensus on Stifle main-deck? In my experience, the good players already play around it to the best of their ability, and the bad players you shouldn't have the worry about anyways.

I've religated them to my board (opponent might relax a bit after G1 of no stifle), and I'm running spellstutters in their place.

This "tech" had been already shown some posts above, the point is, as you say, that such an effect would mainly require to have plenty of U open to pump Thrasher. And this deck plays 20-21 lands of which at least 7 are colorless, so this effect isn't really maximized. Furthermore, i think the manabase has already reached the balance between basics and "utility" ( non-basic)lands, adding more would make it really vulnerable to nonbasic hate. Maybe this deck can support it as a singleton inclusion if we expect lots of fanatics or burn spells, but that's about it,esclusively.

I tried myself the CounterTop engine, and it just doesn't fit this version of Merfolks. Against the decks you named, we can pack other solutions, whether it's against aggro (propaganda, jitte) or extreme combo ( against which we're already well-set up).

lilrikki2000

04-06-2009, 12:52 AM

lol...i am dapoonk from the other site...and i picked up on the minamo thing from here....but yeah i agree, counterbalance is useless....also, i love stifle maindeck, i run 3 because it can be mana denial, storm killer, help vs gobs, and counterless other effects...and of course pitch if necessary

Piceli89

04-06-2009, 03:58 PM

Guys, i know this "tech " has been already suggested, but playing for some games Ugr Thresh i found that Submerge is fucking gorgeous. Seriously, a time walk against decks playing Green for Tarmoggggoyfff ( which are at least 50% of the decks nowadays, and not only the DTBs) is the nuts if we want to gain some tempo. And the fact that some decks we have a harsh life against, such as Rock, Zoo/GoyfSligh and Aggro Loam, play Green makes it a good card.
Moreover, it comboes well with opponent's fetches ( fetch, in response i submerge your goyf/stalker/obesus brainless creature, say bye to him), and in certain situations it can also be extremley useful if cast in response to a Counterbalance trigger (and, of course, a top cashing-in) while we are resolving something critical. And of course, it avoids counterbalance's curve by itself.
And it comboes with standstill even better than what echoing truth did, too.

Any suggestions? Anyone who has tested it consistently to pull off a wise judgement about it?

lorddotm

04-06-2009, 10:28 PM

So I was testing out a different list abusing the massive disruption found in our decks tagged on with a few Faeries to increase our disruption and chances of victory.

Creatures
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 AEther Vial
4 Daze
4 Standstill
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands
3 Mutavault
13 Island
3 Wasteland

SB
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Back to Basics
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Echoing Truth

I don't really know why Wake Thrasher is all that great, I'm thinking of switching him out for 2 Tidal Warriors or something. They seem like a win-more card. When you are behind he is the last card you want to use, but when you are ahead anything that beats is good.

I may be wrong, but this list seems solid

Also, I'm debating -1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Island, for +2 Riptide Laboratory

Nekrataal

04-07-2009, 03:56 AM

elof

04-07-2009, 04:14 AM

I somehow imagined that it only bounced green creatures or whatever, but it's actually better now that I can use it against other creatures than Tarmogoyf and against more decks.

I been pondering if I should try Hibernation in sb. On paper, it looks good against Progenitus, Enchantress and elfs.

johanessen

04-07-2009, 07:51 AM

elof

04-07-2009, 08:25 AM

Actually, thanks to you, reading that post made me buy 4 german Submerge. So if I want to play them now, I can just toss them in :D

ssilver

04-07-2009, 12:06 PM

_erbs_

04-07-2009, 10:08 PM

lorddotm

04-08-2009, 12:00 AM

To all who tried with the faerie splash, how was it ?

Did the added diruption and evasion gave a big help rather than playing more merfolks or adding spot removal and color for swords to plowshares

And when you won games was it via merfolk or faeries flying over your opponent?

I think that the Faerie splash is amazing. The Spellstutter Sprites and Riptide Laboratories really help against aggro. With Æther Vial kept at two, its not too uncommon to be able to counter or draw every turn (with SpellStutter Sprite and Silvergill Adept respectively), although I do find myself sometimes missing Stifle for an occasional blowout, Spellstutter plus Vendilion is more disruption than most decks can handle. Also makes the deck a lot more deadly when facing an Engineered Plague.

I usually win with a Jitte, so all I need to do is make sure to get one, get enough mana to play and equip it, and start to thrash decks with the Jitte, game two and three become a little tougher with the Krosan Grips being added, but it's not impossible to win through that with Faeries flying over and Merfolk walking in.

I would like to add that Wakethrasher is awesome (offensively) you just need to have continous flow of mana dump via creature drop or man land activation (mutavualts).

About Wake Thrashers, if you are facing down a Goyf on the other side of the table, and don't have an army of dudes to alpha strike, Wake Thrasher becomes MVP, his ability to deal more than goyf makes him priceless when topdecking (as opposed to tidal warrior, which is dead). He is good middle and late game, where tidal warrior is only good early game.

With the Spellstutter Sprites, I find Jitte to be better than Thrasher, but they are both extremely powerful and can deal with Goyf races. The 16 merfolk can get a little troublesome sometimes, but the added power that can be added to all my creatures is a much better trade off.

Just my two cents.

Nekrataal

04-08-2009, 08:07 AM

Hibernation is sick. I Have three in my SB and it has won me games against some of Merfolk's worse matchups (elves and Survival, both which are prevalent in my meta). About Wake Thrashers, if you are facing down a Goyf on the other side of the table, and don't have an army of dudes to alpha strike, Wake Thrasher becomes MVP, his ability to deal more than goyf makes him priceless when topdecking (as opposed to tidal warrior, which is dead). He is good middle and late game, where tidal warrior is only good early game.

Hibernation is far to limited. I think Submerge is better most of the times because often you will only hit one creature anyway and then Submerge is doing more for less. The problems both cards should deal with first are opposing Tarmogoyfs ... all other problematic cards are just very matchup specific and almost not worth a sideboard slot (Argothian Enchantress e.g.). The only matchup I can really think of where Hibernation is better than Submerge is against Elves (and maybe The Rock). Note that the main weapon against Goyf is still Relic.

I somehow imagined that it only bounced green creatures or whatever, but it's actually better now that I can use it against other creatures than Tarmogoyf and against more decks.

I been pondering if I should try Hibernation in sb. On paper, it looks good against Progenitus, Enchantress and elfs.

Progenitus, I think, is declining again and would be a very limited SB choice, rather counter Natural Order or bounce the last creature whatever ;)
Enchantress just won't care. Usually they have 1 maybe 2 Agrothian Enchantresses in play and your are already in trouble. At the very best that buys you 1 turn not more. Mass Enchantment Sweepers would be better here. Against Elves though Hibernation is pretty good although Elves can recover quickly within 2 turns. So Hibernation is like Hurky's Recall from my perspective and many other SB cards in blue that are too limited to matter.

stuckpixel

04-08-2009, 11:01 AM

What about Sower of Temptation - if you're going to go Fae-Folk, certainly this guy warrants discussion sideboard, if not maindeck.

It's a control-magic in a dude that you can bounce and replay once you've killed the stolen dude via combat.

I'm contemplating throwing in a few cliques to replace my thrashers - I love wake but the ability to proactively deal with threats plus have extra fliers might be too good to pass up. What are people's opinions on Wake vs Vendilion in a Fae-folk build?

lorddotm

04-08-2009, 01:16 PM

What about Sower of Temptation - if you're going to go Fae-Folk, certainly this guy warrants discussion sideboard, if not maindeck.

It's a control-magic in a dude that you can bounce and replay once you've killed the stolen dude via combat.

4 Mana in a deck with 20 lands isn't going to happen in a timely manner, but I could see it being good, granted Goblins are just going to burn him, so if its control magic you're into Shackles seems like a better call.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-08-2009, 03:59 PM

Hi guys... I'm back.

So I gotta say, the Fae-Folk build seems like an idea with some potential... But I'm wondering if the correct slot to cut in favor of Clique and Spellstutter might actually be.... Standstill!

Blasphemy, I know. But check the ballistics: Standstill is pretty much only a great play in the early game... Like turn two, turn three at the latest... And this is also not to mention that against many decks (namely, any other deck using Standstill, Aether Vial, man-lands, or just generally any deck that plays a creature on its first turn) Standstill is basically a dead slot.

I'm not necessarily advocating this idea, just suggesting it. Obviously it needs testing. But I wonder if the deck might perform better by increasing its threat density, and possibly even including Jitte in the main-deck to take advantage of the higher creature count... Spellstutter seems incredibly nice to me, esp. in conjunction with Riptide Laboratory if someone can find the space... I dunno, but being able to increase threat density and counterspell density in one card seems like a strong possibility.

So, I know I've said something relatively controversial here, and I'm not saying I'm necessarily right... I'll let other folks choose to address this argument as they see fit.

Skeggi

04-09-2009, 03:37 AM

So, I know I've said something relatively controversial here, and I'm not saying I'm necessarily right... I'll let other folks choose to address this argument as they see fit.
Damnit, you took all the fun out of flaming this idea :tongue:.

Anyway, I like how people think outside of the box. But really, you should put your thoughts right back in, because dropping Standstill isn't an option. Standstill often wins many games, and drawing with a Standstill into another Standstill is golden. Worst case scenario, Standstill is a blue card in your hand. You can pith it to FoW, or pretend it is a FoW (did I just defend the legitimacy of Standstill for this deck?!).

In fact, let me just say now that in my personal opinion, all Faeries except Sower of Temptation aren't worth it. Especially Vendillion Clique isn't as good as you would hope, because it doesn't generate CA. You get a 3/1 flying for 3 mana (or 3 counters on your Vial) with a mediocre ability. And what does that ability often remove from your opponent's hand? That's right: spot-removal. Why not just run Kira then, she does a much better job at protecting our guys.

You say you want to increase the threat density. I can tell you: Spellstutter Sprite isn't exactly an aggro card, and I think the ability is too narrow. Generally, I have enough counters with Daze, Force of Will and Cursecatcher. I'm not looking for a 1/1 Flyer with cmc2 that isn't even a fish which might counter something. Again, Kira is better.

If you really want to increase your threats, run a couple of Kira's and Sowers. Sowers are really worth the trouble. They're double fun if you vial them in at the end of your opponent's turn, grabbing their just-cast Tarmogoyf.

elof

04-09-2009, 04:34 AM

Well said. Only ever fetal flaw is and will remain: Kira+Jitte is no good.

The anti-synergi between them is horrible and I would really like to find a solution to this. Kira is awesome against spot removal. But without jitte, goblins is a bitch. And having both in the deck (SB/Main/Mix) isn't really a great idéa imo.

Sower seems nice, but 4cc? Not a merfolk? That's pretty bad. However, as you say, with Kira, it's absolutly awesome...

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-09-2009, 05:12 AM

Damnit, you took all the fun out of flaming this idea :tongue:.

Anyway, I like how people think outside of the box. But really, you should put your thoughts right back in, because dropping Standstill isn't an option. Standstill often wins many games, and drawing with a Standstill into another Standstill is golden. Worst case scenario, Standstill is a blue card in your hand. You can pith it to FoW, or pretend it is a FoW (did I just defend the legitimacy of Standstill for this deck?!).

In fact, let me just say now that in my personal opinion, all Faeries except Sower of Temptation aren't worth it. Especially Vendillion Clique isn't as good as you would hope, because it doesn't generate CA. You get a 3/1 flying for 3 mana (or 3 counters on your Vial) with a mediocre ability. And what does that ability often remove from your opponent's hand? That's right: spot-removal. Why not just run Kira then, she does a much better job at protecting our guys.

You say you want to increase the threat density. I can tell you: Spellstutter Sprite isn't exactly an aggro card, and I think the ability is too narrow. Generally, I have enough counters with Daze, Force of Will and Cursecatcher. I'm not looking for a 1/1 Flyer with cmc2 that isn't even a fish which might counter something. Again, Kira is better.

If you really want to increase your threats, run a couple of Kira's and Sowers. Sowers are really worth the trouble. They're double fun if you vial them in at the end of your opponent's turn, grabbing their just-cast Tarmogoyf.

Well, how's this: I've been testing the list I proposed and it's doing pretty well. So far the only match-up I've lost on MWS is against Elves! Aggro... I beat the pants off of Burn and Enchantress, which are both relatively difficult match-ups.

I'm not denying that Standstill is a good card... However, this deck isn't really optimally configured to take advantage of it. Think about it this way: Standstill basically asks you to play a one-drop creature and/or a man-land in order to make it relevant. And we play 4 one-drop creatures (ok, not counting Tidal Warrior if you use it) and an average of 3 man-lands (trust me, the fourth Mutavault isn't all that great.)

And as far as your individual arguments against Clique and Spellstutter: Clique very often removes their win condition from their hand before they can play it. Spellstutter counters waay more things in this format than you might initially realize, since the average curve focuses on one through three casting-cost spells. And they both fly, which is very under-rated. This deck has NO EVASION against a deck that doesn't use islands (unless you're arguing that Tidal Warrior into Lord of Atlantis is a consistent way for us to get evasion... don't even go there :wink: ) In a deck that focuses on swarming the opponent with creatures which are frankly sub-par compared to what's available in nearly any color besides blue, we can't really rely on having overwhelming board presence... Which is exactly what Standstill asks of any deck that uses it: Have board advantage or don't play Standstill.

As far as your argument that Standstill pitches to Force of Will... Well, fuck it, why don't we all start running Vizzerdrix then? It's a blue spell, and by your argument, you can just hold it in your hand and pretend it's a Force of Will... until you actually need to counter something...

All I'm saying is don't knock it until you try it. Don't just trash an idea because it's "out of the box" until you actually shuffle it up and play a few games with it.

Again, I'm not saying I'm right... But I am saying I've been testing this idea into the wee hours of the night, and so far the list seems to do pretty well.

EDIT: Oh, and also: Why the living-fuck-hell would you want to put your Vial on four just so you can drop Sower on their 'Goyf at end-of-turn? Did you forget that our curve literally doesn't go as high as four mana????????

Skeggi

04-09-2009, 05:19 AM

Well said. Only ever fetal flaw is and will remain: Kira+Jitte is no good.
This is true, I didn't think of it because I don't use Jitte.

I'm not denying that Standstill is a good card... However, this deck isn't really optimally configured to take advantage of it. Think about it this way: Standstill basically asks you to play a one-drop creature and/or a man-land in order to make it relevant. And we play 4 one-drop creatures (ok, not counting Tidal Warrior if you use it) and an average of 3 man-lands (trust me, the fourth Mutavault isn't all that great.)
Aether Vial.

EDIT: Oh, and also: Why the living-fuck-hell would you want to put your Vial on four just so you can drop Sower on their 'Goyf at end-of-turn? Did you forget that our curve literally doesn't go as high as four mana????????
Because Sower costs 4 mana. You don't always reach 4 mana, let alone the double blue. That's why the Vial is just an extra way of playing Sower. That's why the living-fuck-hell.

I know you test your stuff. That's good. But because you test stuff doesn't mean I don't. Anyway, I'm just giving some points from my perspective. Do with it what you like. But there's absolutely no need to go 'why the living-fuck-hell' on me.

Nekrataal

04-09-2009, 06:06 AM

OMG !

Sower is just awfully slow and much better against control beasue otherwise it is just burned or snuffed. Aether Vial will never be at 4 (usually 2 and only 3 if necessary). Standstill is an auto-include with Mutavault and Wastelands otherwise your draw is almost = zero and your synergies decay. Of course you can board out Standstill against aggro if necessary. Kira + Jitte sucks and Kira is not enough in an Aggro matchup (like Goyfsligh) to convince a Goyfsligh player to just not win. Actually I found that Kira is even better in control matchups than against Aggro and actually that isnt what I intended intially by adding her to a Merfolk build I once played.

Adding Faeries in general is a good idea. I am not sure to what extend this should and can be done. So far I found Vendilion Clique quite OK in addition to 2 Wake Thrasher. She can block airborn stuff like Trygon Predator and is an evasive 3/1 beater that can carry Jitte all the way. Her ability is mediocre. Often I just hit non relevant stuff and the opponent would be better of drawing a card.

_erbs_

04-09-2009, 12:32 PM

I haven't fully tested the fae-folk idea but what i've exprienced in it is that when your vial hits 3 counter and you have a riptide laboratory Vendellion Clique is quite good in terms of letting you remove extra lands in your hand or searching several cards - its way to slooooooooooow but its still nice to see what your opponents hand is since you don't have cantrips. Removing threats in your opponents hand is good asewll. His not as bad as a beater either 3 damage is good enough especially with flying.

With regards to Standstill i have 50/50 thoughts about it yes its good especially when paired with aether vial and since the deck is aggro it needs cards replenishment when you dropped all your creatures which case is quite offen to pump out more damage. But on the other hand its a bit of a dead card middle to end game depending on the board position. A sample situation. you have 2 silvergill adpet and 2 cursecatcher but your opponent has a tombstalker and a dark confidant in play do you cast standstill ? For me i will not cast if. Racing the tombstalker via continous creature drop is what i need to prioritize. Eventhough the deck uses 4 vials you wouldn't always have them espcially with no cantrips..

With regards to Kira the glass spinner, i have tried him because i use jitte main board.

Maybe brainstorm would help plus adding several fetch lands aswell. I don't know if this is happening to you guys but with 19 lands zero cantrips, i get mana flood, mana screwed and mana drought very very weird considering merfolk has a very low curve. Currently im trying out 4 aether vial, 4 brainstorm, 3 standstill and 4 fetch lands in a 19 land configuration

For me the lack of evasion especially mid game (when i was using full merfolks) is a pain when a fatty gets resolves in which case is very common since i only run 7 countermagics its very hard to finish off an opponent unless his blue or i have a lord and a tidal walker to do tricks.

Sometimes i wanted to add white so i could have atleast an STP at my disposal to deal with key threats. The more i play the fae-folks the more it feels like im playing fish

lorddotm

04-09-2009, 12:56 PM

Maybe brainstorm would help plus adding several fetch lands aswell. I don't know if this is happening to you guys but with 19 lands zero cantrips, i get mana flood, mana screwed and mana drought very very weird considering merfolk has a very low curve. Currently im trying out 4 aether vial, 4 brainstorm, 3 standstill and 4 fetch lands in a 19 land configuration

Personally I think that Ponder would be better in this deck, while Brainstorm is good, the fact you need to run fetch lands, which weakens our game against stifle, seems bad. When we run 19-20 lands, often we get 1-2 land hands, having one of those stifled seems like a good way to get your ass kicked in that game. Also, when you start to add in lots of shuffle effects, it makes sense to add CounterTop, which leads to Folk being cut, in which case why not just go NLU and be able to upgrade our threats?

Also Ponder lets us see 12.5% of our deck on the opening turn, thats an extra 5%! And to make it better, if you don't like it, shuffle them away.

For me the lack of evasion especially mid game (when i was using full merfolks) is a pain when a fatty gets resolves in which case is very common since i only run 7 countermagics its very hard to finish off an opponent unless his blue or i have a lord and a tidal walker to do tricks.

Tidal Warrior is crap. Being able to attack for three is a lot more powerful than making an island. Vendilion Clique wins game, alone.

Sometimes i wanted to add white so i could have atleast an STP at my disposal to deal with key threats. The more i play the fae-folks the more it feels like im playing fish

Once again, just run Thresh, Folk is powerful because its mono coloured and can use Back to Basic and dodge Wasteland (for the most part).

Well, how's this: I've been testing the list I proposed and it's doing pretty well. So far the only match-up I've lost on MWS is against Elves! Aggro... I beat the pants off of Burn and Enchantress, which are both relatively difficult match-ups.

I'm not denying that Standstill is a good card... However, this deck isn't really optimally configured to take advantage of it. Think about it this way: Standstill basically asks you to play a one-drop creature and/or a man-land in order to make it relevant. And we play 4 one-drop creatures (ok, not counting Tidal Warrior if you use it) and an average of 3 man-lands (trust me, the fourth Mutavault isn't all that great.)

And as far as your individual arguments against Clique and Spellstutter: Clique very often removes their win condition from their hand before they can play it. Spellstutter counters waay more things in this format than you might initially realize, since the average curve focuses on one through three casting-cost spells. And they both fly, which is very under-rated. This deck has NO EVASION against a deck that doesn't use islands (unless you're arguing that Tidal Warrior into Lord of Atlantis is a consistent way for us to get evasion... don't even go there :wink: ) In a deck that focuses on swarming the opponent with creatures which are frankly sub-par compared to what's available in nearly any color besides blue, we can't really rely on having overwhelming board presence... Which is exactly what Standstill asks of any deck that uses it: Have board advantage or don't play Standstill.

As far as your argument that Standstill pitches to Force of Will... Well, fuck it, why don't we all start running Vizzerdrix then? It's a blue spell, and by your argument, you can just hold it in your hand and pretend it's a Force of Will... until you actually need to counter something...

All I'm saying is don't knock it until you try it. Don't just trash an idea because it's "out of the box" until you actually shuffle it up and play a few games with it.

Again, I'm not saying I'm right... But I am saying I've been testing this idea into the wee hours of the night, and so far the list seems to do pretty well.

EDIT: Oh, and also: Why the living-fuck-hell would you want to put your Vial on four just so you can drop Sower on their 'Goyf at end-of-turn? Did you forget that our curve literally doesn't go as high as four mana????????

Can you post your list? I'd be curious to see what you use over Standstill, and in general what the deck looks like.

EDIT:
I've been testing Ponder for the past couple hours, and it seems to be better, allowing us to keep many more hands than we usually can keep. It seems better than Brainstorm

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-09-2009, 03:25 PM

@ Skeggi: Sorry if I came across as overly hostile, it wasn't really my intention. Certainly not trying to start shit with anyone, but it seems to me that Standstill is becoming sort of a 'sacred cow' in the way people build this deck. I understand it's a powerful card, but it can be a double-edged sword, and in a fair amount of match-ups I find myself wishing I had literally any other card in my hand... The lack of card draw without it is definitely an issue that should be addressed, and I'm not entirely sure that my list I'm testing is better off without it...

@ Lorddotm: Certainly. Here's the list I've been testing:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

12 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
2 Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Echoing Truth
3 Back to Basics

* As far as Vendillion Clique having a mediocre ability, here's where I disagree. Knowledge is power, and just the very act of being able to see the opponent's hand gives you an automatic advantage over him in terms of information... If you see nothing in their hand worthy of sending to the bottom, then by all means just don't let them draw a card. In a format where many decks are light on threat count, Clique can very often leave them without a way of racing. Not to mention that you can use it on yourself to eliminate dead cards from your hand (but, no, Erbs, sadly you can't use it to send back lands, since it says "non-land card")... All this, plus the fact that Clique is capable of racing the opponent on its own, seems to me to make it a very strong card indeed.

lorddotm

04-09-2009, 03:30 PM

Here's the list I've been testing:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

12 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
2 Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Echoing Truth
3 Back to Basics

Our lists are extremely similar, I run 4 Ponder and a 4th Daze over the Stifles and Wake Thrashers. Jitte seems to be enough power for my deck to race, that and Ponder helps in getting multiple Lords out.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-09-2009, 04:32 PM

Our lists are extremely similar, I run 4 Ponder and a 4th Daze over the Stifles and Wake Thrashers. Jitte seems to be enough power for my deck to race, that and Ponder helps in getting multiple Lords out.

I think Ponder is pretty interesting... Do you run it in addition to Standstill, or instead of Standstill?

Whereas Standstill generates raw, blind card advantage, Ponder generates card selection quality... but doesn't generate any actual card advantage, since it's just a one-for-one. Honestly, if there were any way I could figure out how to make the space for both of them, I'd try it out... But I don't think there's room for Ponder, Standstill, and a small Faerie package...

Anyhow please let me know how Ponder has been working out for you, it seems like it would potentially be very good in this deck...

Shawon

04-09-2009, 04:42 PM

I doubt anyone else considered this, but I once ran a list with 7 artifacts (3 Jitte + 4 Vial) and I realized that having 4 Force of Will would leave me with dead hands and bad positions, so I cut down to 3 Force of Will.

Has anyone tried just 3 Force of Will? I'm sure I'll get crucified for this thought, but I think it's a legitimate move because you want the power to stop anything with FoW, but sometimes you just can't afford to pitch your only creature to FoW.

whosyourdaddy

04-09-2009, 04:43 PM

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-09-2009, 05:52 PM

Well that's exactly my thought(and so is the configuration you listed).
Getting colour screwed(it happened to me fairly often with the 'standard' list) with a mono-coloured deck is simply ridiculous and shouldn't really happen 0.o

I'm running 4 BS and 4 fetch and it's been doing better than I even expected. Not only in terms of fixing my mana but also digging up lords and finding answers in certain situations when Standstill can at best be stuffed up my ...nose.
I know there's already been some discussion on it but hey, isn't merfolk the only legacy deck that runs islands and no Brainstorms? Hmm, that's puzzling.

Also, Ponder seems nice replacement if you want to stay fetchless.

The thing is, people don't use Brainstorm because it requires fetches... And for some reason many folks seem to feel that not getting hit by Stifle is about the most important thing this deck is capable of.

Personally though, I feel that Ponder is actually the stronger card in this deck. Ponder doesn't depend on shuffle effects in order to be good, and frankly, it's probably going to take more than four fetch-lands in order to optimize Brainstorm.

While I think it's pretty ridiculous that folks shoot down Brainstorm "because it makes us lose to Stifle," it seems to me that Ponder would actually require the deck to adapt around it much less, and therefor would probably be the better of the two cards.

But hey, for the record, if you run fetch-lands and Brainstorms and find it to be good, I could believe it... It just seems to me that fetch-lands open up a whole can of worms such as "why not splash white for StP?"; "why make ourselves vulnerable to non-basic hate?"; etc. etc. etc.

whosyourdaddy

04-09-2009, 06:19 PM

@Duke
Well, maybe It's jus hard for me to drop out my dear Brainstorms...;)
(or maybe it's because I've never really been hit by 'stifle your fetch')

Still, I guess most decks that actually run Stifles are rather good MUps, while BS helped me out with the troublesome ones. For instance? Yes, I really believe that my game against goblin got better after I included BS's(It still sucks though). Topdeck=Brainstorm->Cast BS->Get LoA->Cast it->Beat face!
Without BS I would have waited like 3 more turns to get it(and propably loose to my critters being to small and dying to fanatic's farts). I found that to be a common situation.

Anyway I'm still not completely sold on the idea and so I think ponder could succesfuly take up the the slot.

lorddotm

04-09-2009, 09:48 PM

I think Ponder is pretty interesting... Do you run it in addition to Standstill, or instead of Standstill?

Whereas Standstill generates raw, blind card advantage, Ponder generates card selection quality... but doesn't generate any actual card advantage, since it's just a one-for-one. Honestly, if there were any way I could figure out how to make the space for both of them, I'd try it out... But I don't think there's room for Ponder, Standstill, and a small Faerie package...

Anyhow please let me know how Ponder has been working out for you, it seems like it would potentially be very good in this deck...

I do not run it with Standstill, the Faerie package is much more important to me.

Ponder has tested amazingly well, the only times I wish it was a Standstill is when I'm already winning, where I don't really need it at all. Ponder allows me to keep hands which I normally could not, plus at worst it pitches to Force.

gamegeek2

04-09-2009, 11:43 PM

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-10-2009, 04:01 PM

Standstill locks the game down. Ponder sets the game up. But Ponder isn't nearly as good in this deck because this deck doesn't run fetches. True, Ponder isn't Brainstorm, but it's still better with fetches.

I see the point you're making, but I'm not sure I agree. In a deck that runs an average of 18-20 lands, it seems to me that fetch-lands are kinda pointless. We don't really need to thin our deck out, and Ponder helps avoid getting mana screw and mana flood, thus effectively helping the deck run less lands.

I've switched to a list with 4 Standstill, 3 Ponder main-deck, also including the 6-Faerie package I like (4 Spellstutter, 2 Vendillion)... And so far, it feels like living the dream to me. Hit me up if you want to see the list or test on MWS some time.

lorddotm

04-13-2009, 01:34 AM

Duke, what's your super duper living the life list?

_erbs_

04-14-2009, 11:48 AM

I still feel i need more playtesting sessions but from what i've exprienced so far from running the faefolk are:
- riptide laboratory sometimes is a dead card rather you will just use him it mana to powerup mutavaults.
- spellstutter sprite's countering ability is very very limited.
- not sure if i need more lands there are times the deck is struggling with mana, sometimes its good enough.
- a resolved fatty (tarmogoyf, tombstalker, etc) is so hard to race and will eventually eat up all your creatures if you don't draw a wake thrasher.
- still have 50/50 thoughts on standstill. the draw 3 cards is just awesome.
- jitte is good im my list for me
- still have 50/50 thoughts towards ponder vs brainstorm. after you draw from a cracked standstill the instant ability of brainstorm is nice especially when your looking for countermagic or put back lands from your hand which you drew from standstill.
- the fetch lands was okay.
- the vendellion cliques performed good aswell.
- the number of lord effects seemed okay aswell though at times i wanted more so that i could race my opponents fat creatures.

The list...
4 flooded strand
3 mutavault
2 riptide laboratory
10 island

4 cursecatcher
4 lord of atlantis
3 silvergil adept
4 spellstutter sprite
2 wake thrasher
2 merrow rejereey
2 vendellion clique

2 ponder
2 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 daze
3 standstill
4 aether vial
2 umezawa's jitte

i was wondering if anyone had tried playing mothdust changeling.., its a 1 cc card that would give your spellstutter sprite more threats to counter and giving you a more 1st turn drop.

i would like to test 3 of them atleast or 3 tidal warrior they both have mediocre abilities but the mothdust would boost the countering effect of spellstutter while the tidal warrior could grant islandwalk to a non blue deck.
but what to cut...

stuckpixel

04-14-2009, 12:11 PM

I'm running 21 presently in my deck and I am loving it. I'm running 4 Vault, 3 Wasteland, 2 riptide and 12 island.

While it does negate the possibility of going B2B in the board (which can be a game breaker against some decks), it gives you a lot of power. I need to spend more time with the spellstutters - but I feel that they will be decent jitte carriers if nothing else.

I see riptide as more of a mid-late game card. It lets you draw a land every turn or bounce your counters back to your hand. Early game it's just another colorless land which sucks but really does give the deck staying power.

I'm really tempted to maindeck sowers - 4 mana to steal a goyf is a pretty good deal to me - and you can bounce it with your lab if you need to. They're religated to the board at the moment.

gamegeek2

04-14-2009, 04:50 PM

Well, my friend's thinking about building Merfolk to play in legacy (10-proxy local tourneys). I'm looking at this list right now:

12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
2 Riptide Laboratory

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Standstill
2 Stifle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Like what often happens, Daze gets the nod for necessary cuts. Vendilion Clique is excellent and makes 3-counter Vials much stronger (as many of us have discovered).

My main concern is the number of Islands it runs - 12 has seemed too low to me. I don't like the prospect of going to 3 Wasteland, but Riptide is important, providing some staying power. I don't want any more than 22 lands - 22 seems like the right number.

from Cairo

04-14-2009, 05:14 PM

i was wondering if anyone had tried playing mothdust changeling.., its a 1 cc card that would give your spellstutter sprite more threats to counter and giving you a more 1st turn drop.

i would like to test 3 of them atleast or 3 tidal warrior they both have mediocre abilities but the mothdust would boost the countering effect of spellstutter while the tidal warrior could grant islandwalk to a non blue deck.
but what to cut...

Mothdust Changeling and Tidal Warrior are both really underpowered, I can't see rationalizing any cuts for 1/1s with bad abilities; I mean Tidal Warrior was defensible pre-Cursecatcher but that was just because the 1cc Merfolk were that horrible, with a decent one finally securing the spot, I wouldn't look back.

rufus

04-14-2009, 05:44 PM

I (wishfully) think that there is some untapped potential with something like Mothdust Changeling/Puresight Merrow but it would be a very different deck.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-14-2009, 06:06 PM

Anyone here tried Vedalken Shackles much yet?

Personally, I like it in theory at least... Picked up the idea from playing a couple mirror matches against Picelli. I haven't really gotten it out in too many games where it's mattered much yet, but I still need to test it more. The issue to me is that I'm not sure if my 11 islands are really enough to power it effectively...

So, in other news, I've dropped the Faeries... For now. I've found cutting Wake Thrasher to be a pretty horrible idea...

Speaking of Wake Thrasher, the one piece of tech I'm absolutely loving these days is 1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge. To put it simply, it's fucking fantastic.

tyleredw

04-14-2009, 07:38 PM

Speaking of Wake Thrasher, the one piece of tech I'm absolutely loving these days is 1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge. To put it simply, it's fucking fantastic.

What exactly is the Minamo used for? I fail to see any Legendary permanents in the deck, save for Jitte, which has no need to be untapped.

jthanatos

04-14-2009, 07:49 PM

What exactly is the Minamo used for? I fail to see any Legendary permanents in the deck, save for Jitte, which has no need to be untapped.

It can untap itself a whole bunch making wake thrasher rather.....large. I feel it falls a bit in the danger of cool things catagory, but on the flip side, it only costs one slot.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-14-2009, 08:39 PM

It can untap itself a whole bunch making wake thrasher rather.....large. I feel it falls a bit in the danger of cool things catagory, but on the flip side, it only costs one slot.

Yeah, that's the trick, that's how it's used... I see what you mean about the "danger of cool stuff" but I think you said it best: It only costs one slot. Personally, I just run one Minamo in the place of a basic Island (giving me about 11 Islands), and it hasn't eaten a Wasteland yet...

Although it seems gimmicky, I've found Minamo to be amazing in the event that you get yourself into top-deck mode, providing of course that you have a Thrasher you can keep in play. In this event, it literally turns all your Islands into assets you can use to race your opponent more effectively.

Basically, to me the question boils down to "Why not run one Minamo instead of one Island?" ...And the fact that it makes us, what... 5% more vulnerable to non-basic hate... Well, so far it just seems like a non-issue. Especially since it is still usable under Back to Basics... :cool:

_erbs_

04-14-2009, 09:54 PM

Mothdust Changeling and Tidal Warrior are both really underpowered, I can't see rationalizing any cuts for 1/1s with bad abilities; I mean Tidal Warrior was defensible pre-Cursecatcher but that was just because the 1cc Merfolk were that horrible, with a decent one finally securing the spot, I wouldn't look back.

Yes they are unpowered indeed but since his a changeling he will boost the effectiveness of spellstutters. And add to your 1st turn drop which i think is important.

The problem I felt before when i was running a full merfolk list was you tend to wait for your lords to power up your army when your faced with just 1 big fatty and when another fatty resolves even your lords can't help. In this kind of situation TIdal Warrior shines assuming you have a lord in play aswell. But sometimes they don't come together since i just run 2 tidal warrior in my previous list. As compared to creatures with evasion a single jitte could boost your aggro power level by a ton.

Nekrataal

04-15-2009, 07:41 AM

Yes they are unpowered indeed but since his a changeling he will boost the effectiveness of spellstutters. And add to your 1st turn drop which i think is important.

The problem I felt before when i was running a full merfolk list was you tend to wait for your lords to power up your army when your faced with just 1 big fatty and when another fatty resolves even your lords can't help. In this kind of situation TIdal Warrior shines assuming you have a lord in play aswell. But sometimes they don't come together since i just run 2 tidal warrior in my previous list. As compared to creatures with evasion a single jitte could boost your aggro power level by a ton.

Let's face it. Fatties these days are Stalker and Goyf. Both are handled by Relics. JItte boost your aggro power but you have to run 2-3 to benefit.

stuckpixel

04-15-2009, 08:01 AM

I strongly dislike running singletons of cards that are seen as important (the one exception being Minamo - because you don't want to have to sac lands for no reason).

If you want to use Jitte, run 2-3.

If you're having problems with fatties - use wake thrasher. Especially comboed with minamo (but even without), he should be able to steamroll both on his own (even without Lord/Reej backup).

Otherwise, hold your counterspells for when these guys are cast. Ususally players will tap out for stalker (especially if they're playing eva green) rather than lose all their GY cards. Daze should get the job done. If you're playing Faefolk, it's not unreasonable to be able to spellstutter a goyf (or daze if they're playing him turn 2). When you can't, you FoW.

Relic does nerf goyfs (and can proactively nerf stalkers if you play your cards right), but for me the real problem in maindecking them is that they are dead cards against goblins, meathooks, etc. Jitte, even if you just have a few counters on it, can win you the game. It can make their threat smaller, make yours bigger, or stall by gaining life.

That said, I do play a few relics in my board - and I suspect they will come in for about 50% of my matches, but they aren't quite versatile enough for me to want them main.

Forbiddian

04-15-2009, 02:25 PM

I strongly dislike running singletons of cards that are seen as important...

Nice philosophy. But why would anybody else possibly follow you off the cliff?

The first card is better than the second. This can be seen with Isamaru getting split with Savannah Lions, but it can also be seen in other situations. Would you rather have 2 Jitte or 1 Jitte+X? Would you rather have 2 Daze or 1 Daze+X? Would you rather have 2 Standstill or 1 Standstill+X?

For most cards, the first card adds the most value to the deck, since it's impossible to draw multiples of it, and the fourth card adds the least because by that point, the differential probability of drawing a singleton falls behind the differential probability of drawing a multiple.

Whenever you run 3-of a card, you're saying that the diminishing returns on that card is such that the fourth card would add less value than the 61st conceivable card but that the third is better).

Whenever you run a 2-of card, you're making the same claim (the third card is worse than the 61st conceivable card, but the second card is better).

This claim is obviously at least as valid for 1-of cards. I never understand how people can run 3-ofs but then categorically reject running a 1-of.

A Merfolk example: Everyone running Minamo runs 1x. Why? Because Minamo is barely better than an Island, if at all, and drawing 2x Minamo really sucks. The people running 1x obviously think Minamo is better than Island, at least marginally. Although running 2x doesn't give you a big shot at drawing 2x Minamo, that tiny chance to get totally screwed on a card draw is bigger than the tiny improvement by turning a second Island into a Minamo. Thus, the 61st conceivable card (Island) is worse than Minamo, but a second Minamo is worse than an island.

Otherwise, hold your counterspells for when these guys are cast. Ususally players will tap out for stalker (especially if they're playing eva green) rather than lose all their GY cards.

It seems like you're relying on your opponent making terrible play mistakes. Losing your 5/5 to a midgame/blanked Daze is an excellent way to lose a game. EDIT: Comparatively, -1/-1 on a Tarmogoyf that may or may not exist in the drawn cards is minor. And very often they'll be able to dig out old Tomby without dumping their whole yard anyway. Saving Daze for the endgame is a decision that only works on the worst magic players. If my opponent gives me the opportunity to daze something of consequence early, I'll definitely pounce rather than praying my opponent punts his Tombstalker away.

When you can't, you FoW.

Thanks for the tip! That's absolutely brilliant!

Relic does nerf goyfs (and can proactively nerf stalkers if you play your cards right), but for me the real problem in maindecking them is that they are dead cards against goblins, meathooks, etc. Jitte, even if you just have a few counters on it, can win you the game. It can make their threat smaller, make yours bigger, or stall by gaining life.

Relic can be cycled when it's "dead." Especially against Meathooks, which is a pretty slow deck, I'm sure you'll be able to use it to cycle down. The ability to neuter ANT, Threshold, AggroLoam, Ichorid, Team America I think outweighs paying an extra 2 sometimes.

I also think Jitte is a good card, but what's with you listing all the card abilities/giving retardedly superficial advice about playing? By the way, you forgot to mention how you can equip Jitte for 2. I try to use that ability at least once per time that I cast Jitte as it's important.

Oh, and what's this? Relic gives Wakethrasher +1/+1? OMG! I mentioned ANOTHER thing that you can do with the cards in your deck!

I'm sure what you're saying isn't so patronizing and condescending, but pretending like we don't know what Jitte/Force of Will does really gets old (especially when it appears that you don't know what Relic does since you indicate it's a dead card against Meathooks where you easily have time to cycle it).

I'd call it crap against Goblins, but not much else. There are MUs where I'd board it out same as Jitte.

stuckpixel

04-15-2009, 03:19 PM

Nice philosophy. But why would anybody else possibly follow you off the cliff? There's zero reason to hold that belief that beyond some superstitious nonsense.

The first card is better than the second. This can be seen with Isamaru getting split with Savannah Lions, but it can also be seen in other situations. Would you rather have 2 Jitte or 1 Jitte+X? Would you rather have 2 Daze or 1 Daze+X? Would you rather have 2 Standstill or 1 Standstill+X?

For most cards, the first card adds the most value to the deck, since it's impossible to draw multiples of it, and the fourth card adds the least because by that point, the differential probability of drawing a singleton falls behind the differential probability of drawing a multiple.

Whenever you run 3-of a card, you're saying that the diminishing returns on that card is such that the fourth card would add less value than the 61st conceivable card but that the third is better).

Whenever you run a 2-of card, you're making the same claim (the third card is worse than the 61st conceivable card, but the second card is better).

This claim is obviously at least as valid for 1-of cards. I never understand how people can run 3-ofs but then categorically reject running a 1-of.

A Merfolk example: Everyone running Minamo runs 1x. Why? Because Minamo is barely better than an Island, if at all, and drawing 2x Minamo really sucks. The people running 1x obviously think Minamo is better than Island, at least marginally. Although running 2x doesn't give you a big shot at drawing 2x Minamo, that tiny chance to get totally screwed on a card draw is bigger than the tiny improvement by turning a second Island into a Minamo. Thus, the 61st conceivable card (Island) is worse than Minamo, but a second Minamo is worse than an island.
If a card is important to see in a game, running 1 in 60 gives you the least possible chance to draw it.

Probability of drawing a card in your opening 7 (approx):

1/60: 12%
2/60: 21%
3/60: 28%
4/60: 34%

If a card is _important_ to your master plan, you should not run 1x unless you have some way to tutor for it. By running 1xs you are increasing the luck factor of your deck - which is fine if you understand it - but it's not going to be as consistent. It's called math - last time I checked magic used quite a bit of it.

It seems like you're relying on your opponent making terrible play mistakes. Losing your 5/5 to a midgame/blanked Daze is an excellent way to lose a game. And very often they'll be able to dig out old Tomby without dumping their whole yard anyway. Saving Daze for the endgame is a decision that only works on the worst magic players. If my opponent gives me the opportunity to daze something of consequence early, I'll definitely pounce rather than praying my opponent punts his Tombstalker away.

Nowhere did I advocate saving daze for the lategame. I'm saying that if you are putting the hurt on a black deck, they may need to drop stalker without leaving extra mana up because they need to change the board position. Any player who's read the card understands that daze is the most valuable early game.

Relic can be cycled when it's "dead." Especially against Meathooks, which is a pretty slow deck, I'm sure you'll be able to use it to cycle down. The ability to neuter ANT, Threshold, AggroLoam, Ichorid, Team America I think outweighs paying an extra 2 sometimes.

Meathooks isn't any slower than we are. Cycling relic isn't bad, but you lose tempo doing it - I'd rather see something in my hand that is going to be useful (in some sense) in just about every matchup instead of one that will be useful in a handful of them.

Word to the wise - a rant-laden post that's about 2-3 times longer than the post its complaining about is probably just as annoying than someone stating the obvious. Obviously the people who've been playing the deck for a while know how things work, but not everyone reading the thread is a merfolk veteran.

Piceli89

04-15-2009, 03:24 PM

I'm currently back from having tested quite goodly Sower of Temptation in that 2 slots which -i 'm convinced of- must at all costs be dedicated to creature stealing / creature facing (i.e. "virtual " removals), and i must admit i was quite unimpressed. The fact that they cost 4 seems slightly controproductive especially when this deck needs to gain control in the first turn of the game wastelanding /dazing threats, and indeed, even when i was able to steal a random opponent's fattie, it didn't really change the situation, especially against green-fatties based decks ( the matchups for which this card was choosed).
Indeed, i was thinking, as DukeDemonKn1ght said, that the power of Vedalken Shackles could really find an adequate placement here. The possibility of trading 2 creatures and making them clash among them is really appealing, and i feel Shackles is really that "late game bomb " this deck couldn't find. Moreover, the greatest advantage of Shackle is that it can steal any threat, and this makes it way better than narrow solutions such as Threads of Disloyalty ( or Mind Harness, for those of you who have ever played or considered it). And it's way less subjected to removal than how Sower is, ofc.
The point , of course, is that Shackles performs in many games on an underpowered level, because of the many utility lands we play; therefore, it can't be always considered an otpimal / gamebreaking tool, and this is the main reason i'm still not toally sold on it. But i still see it as one of the more versatile ways we have to prevent bigger cratures from smashing us in certain situations, even if it really requires a controllish input to get to the late game and exploit it. Have someone tested it enough to give an exaustive speech -and personal thought- about trying or not trying it?

Other quick notes that (perhaps) could interest someone: without stifles, this deck really performs in a more slowish and "gearing " way. In several opening hands, i found myself with a hand full of good merfolks (2lords, 2reejereys, 1 thrasher and 1 adept, plus 2 lands, f.e.), but i was forced to practically waste the first turn waiting for the 2nd drop. I think that , in the lists which have cut stifles and relics for different, more costy solutions, we must compensate this lack in the curve putting some 1-cc drops, to help smoothing the curve itself (and even to make vial better, somehow). For this reason, i returned considering tidal warrior, which provides all these benefits, and applies the ones that everyone already knows.

And, still, i found few situations where i'd rather have had a stifle than other cards.

I also tried Submerge in side, but, despites its sinergy with standstill, fetches, ecc, it never changed really the match situation. Perhaps i wasn't able to cast it in the proper moment or more simply, i didn't meet a single "proper moment", but meh, still not convinced.

Happy Gilmore

04-15-2009, 04:54 PM

You could try Threads or Control Magic instead of Submerge. And I would try Waterfront Bouncer in the MD. I found it to be very good in testing.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-15-2009, 09:30 PM

You could try Threads or Control Magic instead of Submerge. And I would try Waterfront Bouncer in the MD. I found it to be very good in testing.

Waterfront Bouncer is hella good, I think... But there's not really much space in the deck as far as 2-drops go. I think what Picelli meant is that by dropping Stifle, we effectively leave ourselves with 8 one-drops (Cursecatcher and Aether Vial), which isn't quite enough. Personally I've always liked Tidal Warrior, although I admit he's not like *the best Merfolk I could imagine for one mana*. I've personally cut Stifle and so far I haven't had cause to regret it. And although I agree that Bouncer's effect is probably stronger than T-Warrior's overall, the problem is that we need to keep the curve as low as possible.

*In my opinion, this deck just has too many "auto include" cards for two mana for Bouncer to find a home here.

_erbs_

04-15-2009, 10:25 PM

Since where on the topic..
I would like to repost what i've posted earlier with regards to 1 drops. Currently where if your playing faefolk or full merfolk list the 1 drop consists averagely of only 8-10 cards 4 cursecatcher 4 aethervial 2 tidal warrior.

In my earlier posts i suggested that maybe Mothdust Changeling could be given a chance uping the 1 drop to 11-12 giving you a higher chance of droping a 1st turn threat. I suggested him bec he could boost the countering ability of spellstutter, gains bonus from lords and has an evasion if you need it.

Yes waterfront bouncer seems to be good defensively but the merfolk is slow as it is giving it more utility creatures over offensive ones i think is not the right choice... The deck has on spot removal assuming your running mono blue if you add utility creatures your slowing your damage per turn.

A friend of mine suggested why don't you cut standstill and go all out aggro and up my creature count to 24 instead of 21. I told him that the 3 draw coming from standstill is too good to pass but on the other hand can you cast all of those creatures at once assuming you all get creatures from your standstill draw. No you have limited mana as it is but that would give you a bluff hand and a continous drop of threat every turn. You can do that if your creatures are combat compitent but sadly merfolks have no evasion, no first strike, needs tidal warrir + LoA trick which sometimes doesn't happen constantly.

So the more damage you do early on the better chance you could finish off your opponent and making each crack of his fetch sting more...

Im also leaning towards redcuing my aether vial count to 3 instead of 4 and adding more one drops becuase drawing an aether vial mid to late game is kinda useless

Nekrataal

04-16-2009, 05:57 AM

Other quick notes that (perhaps) could interest someone: without stifles, this deck really performs in a more slowish and "gearing " way. In several opening hands, i found myself with a hand full of good merfolks (2lords, 2reejereys, 1 thrasher and 1 adept, plus 2 lands, f.e.), but i was forced to practically waste the first turn waiting for the 2nd drop. I think that , in the lists which have cut stifles and relics for different, more costy solutions, we must compensate this lack in the curve putting some 1-cc drops, to help smoothing the curve itself (and even to make vial better, somehow). For this reason, i returned considering tidal warrior, which provides all these benefits, and applies the ones that everyone already knows.

Cutting Stifles doesnt make the deck slower. Not playing Tidal Warrior alongside Cursecatcher does which I do not recommend actually. What you forget about is that if I have a Vial or a Cursecatcher (or Tidal Warrior) in my opening hand I will always play Vial on the play and maybe also a threat especially with Standstill in hand. On the draw this may be slightly differ by opponent but usually this is the strongest play. Vial allows you to power out twice as much creatures a turn. But what I am actually try to point out is that although Stifle costs one mana I rarely played it turn 1 because I do not leave mana open for e.g. Fetchlands and on the draw ppl tend to crack their fetches before your turn begins in fear of Stifle. So I can't see where Stifle speeds up the deck because it just fits the curve nicely. Cutting Relics completely e.g. for Jitte is no good solution imho because you have much slower control over the most dangerous beaters and stallers Goyf and Stalker that even when just stalling can cost you games. So to make it faster you need more 1cc creatures ... where Tidal Warrior comes in again. Unfortunately the good choices for 1cc creatures in blue that fit into Merfolks are very rare and none is really convincing. I think that this lack of strong choices apart from the obvious 16 also lead to the fact FaeFolk is considered as a mitigation. But the longer this thread gets the more prove I find that this solution doesnt do the trick.

pi4meterftw

04-16-2009, 10:42 AM

If a card is important to see in a game, running 1 in 60 gives you the least possible chance to draw it.

Probability of drawing a card in your opening 7 (approx):

1/60: 12%
2/60: 21%
3/60: 28%
4/60: 34%

You covered your behind by saying "approx" but how did you not know that the chance of drawing a 1 of in the opening hand was 7/60? (Provided your cards are equally likely to be drawn.)

Skeggi

04-16-2009, 10:47 AM

He was making a list. With 1/60 he meant the chance of a 1-of in a 60-card deck to appear in the starting 7. With 2/60 he meant the chance of a 2-of in a 60 card deck to appear in the starting 7. And so on and so forth.

elof

04-16-2009, 11:37 AM

@Shackles:
I have tried it in my sb as a singelton. I really liked it when playing against goblins and that sorts of decks. The hard thing is to get to 3+2 mana, but when you did... it was most often gg. The other problem with the card is that it attracts Krosan Grips like a sandwich attracts ants. We have no outs for Grips as far as I know... :/

@1 drops:
This is really important and I been over this with myself before. 8 1 dropps is to few. Perhaps adding a few fetches and Ponder/Brainstorm? 10-14 1-drops is enough I think. It also makes Daze worse since you can play Island go, Daze, Island go. And that doesn't look good to me...

_erbs_

04-16-2009, 12:33 PM

@1 drops
I've test 11 1cc card and it made the deck more aggressive early on the problem is that when mid range to fatty creatures comes out slowly your troops gets killed one by one. Even if you have lords in play.

Im still at a lost with regards to the magic number when it comes into lands. I ran 19 lands 4 fetch and 5 colorless mana 3 mutavaults 2 riptide lab, with 2 brainstorm and 2 ponder. It still struggles from mana flood and mana drought.

I removed standstill from my list and i it was okay.

Oh by the way Mothdust Changeling is not bad as you think when you tried him..

Other cards that i want to test out are Saprazzan Heir and Inkfathom Inflitrator

I miss tidal warrior aswell it makes damage race against fatties almost equal

Tacosnape

04-16-2009, 12:59 PM

Just saying, the best 1CC spells in Blue tend to not be creatures.

Brainstorm, Ponder, Stifle, Spell Snare, Opt, suspending an Ancestral Visions, etc. All seem to be better options than most 1-drop Merfolk. I think if you're going the LD route you want Stifle. Otherwise you want either Snare or some draw spell.

It's probably a weak idea, but anyone tried out Force Spike, just to be absurdly over the top with Daze and Cursecatcher?

Finn

04-16-2009, 02:38 PM

I love the idea, Taco, but the ist turn is so loaded up with important plays that I would not go that route. In particular, it is already hard to watch an opponent crack a fetchland (although necessary) when you just dropped a turn 1 vial and you are holding Stifle.

Ah, I see. I missed a few posts. You guys cutting Stifle are nuts.

ssilver

04-16-2009, 02:50 PM

A while ago I tried out force spike, and the problem was that people would just play around it (and you would usually end up wasting time that you could have used to play something bigger). I would like to hear other people's opinions on them though.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-17-2009, 05:19 PM

Ah, I see. I missed a few posts. You guys cutting Stifle are nuts.

@Finn: Normally, I would agree with you. Stifle is an awesome card, and in a vacuum, it's probably the best one-mana disruption spell available for this deck.

Here's the problem though: Competitive play doesn't operate within a vacuum. Merfolk is much more of a well-known deck than it was maybe four or five months ago, and consequently, people are much more likely to expect us to run certain cards (the best examples being Stifle, Standstill, and Daze) and learn to proactively play around these cards.

In my mind, this is the problem that I'm seeking to address. I look at Merfolk as a very good deck which I know and love dearly, but let's face it: it's somewhat of a metagame deck. This means that when the metagame evolves, we have to advance with it.

So exactly what am I saying here: have people stopped using fetch-lands, Storm combo, Engineered Explosives, and Pernicious Deed? Most definitely not. So why is Stifle becoming less good? The number one reason is that people expect us to use it. An experienced player that knows he is playing against Merfolk (and let's face it, our first turn usually makes it pretty obvious that's what we're using), if he knows this, he will wait to crack his fetches until we're tapped out, or else do so after we drop a Vial or Cursecatcher on our first turn. This is unless he really needs the land right then to play something crucial and there isn't any other way for him to make his land drop. In that case, he will risk it, but we may or may not even have the Stifle to shut him down.

In my humble opinion, the reason that Merfolk loses most of the matches that it does is this: It is a very good deck, but it runs a fair amount of cards which are potentially awesome against the right deck, but usually end up being dead cards against the wrong deck. As I've said, I think the clearest examples of this type of card in the deck are Stifle, Standstill, and Daze. (I can already hear someone heckling "Just sideboard those cards out when they're bad!" Ok, but what about the possibility of finding replacements for them which are perhaps more generalized towards the meta-game rather than occupying a powerful, but specific niche?) Personally I feel that Stifle is the most likely of the three to sit in one's hand as a dead card, and that's why I've been trying the deck without it.

...So, does that make it seem any less crazy to you?

rufus

04-17-2009, 10:15 PM

In my humble opinion, the reason that Merfolk loses most of the matches that it does is this: It is a very good deck, but it runs a fair amount of cards which are potentially awesome against the right deck, but usually end up being dead cards against the wrong deck. As I've said, I think the clearest examples of this type of card in the deck are Stifle, Standstill, and Daze. [I](I can already hear someone heckling "Just sideboard those cards out when they're bad!"

Stifle does well against a lot of decks. It's good against a large number of popular cards
Fetchlands
Wasteland
Chrome Mox
Storm Finishers
Trinket Mage
Imperial Recruiter

Paging through the DTW list, most decks feature at least 8 cards with effects that can be usefully countered by Stifle. The primary exception that I see is stompy decks.

stuckpixel

04-17-2009, 10:37 PM

Stifle does well against a lot of decks. It's good against a large number of popular cards
Fetchlands
Wasteland
Chrome Mox
Storm Finishers
Trinket Mage
Imperial Recruiter

Paging through the DTW list, most decks feature at least 8 cards with effects that can be usefully countered by Stifle. The primary exception that I see is stompy decks.

The problem, as Duke mentioned in the post just before yours, is people play around stifle if they realize they're facing down merfolk. As such - that means you are going to have effectively 3-4 dead cards in your deck.

This is precisely why I've moved my Stifles to the SB.

_erbs_

04-18-2009, 12:38 AM

With regards to stifle

Yes its a good card but as ive been playing this deck for quite awhile now i felt that is more suited as an SB card rather than in the MB.

I've tried several builds in where stifle could be maximized to the fullest but it only works in certain decks. I've run this configuration 4 stifle, 2 phyrexian dreadnought, 3 wastelands, 2 rishadan ports and 2 tidal warrior. I've also tried 4 stifle, 2 phyrexian dreadnought, and 3 back to basics.

I know moving stilfe in the sb list would hurt my 1 game agaisnt rock decks which run pernicious deeds. I think its more of a meta game call.

Currently im running a full aggro list 24 creatures 3 jitte's and no standstill. but with 3 ponders.

Yes standstill is an awesome card draw 3 yummy !! but with more threat drops early on it gives you a jump start over your opponent and merfolk is not good in late game (for me) so whats the use of drawing 3 cards if you have few threats early on and 1 mid range creature or 1 fatty could kill all your troops each turn.

Finn

04-18-2009, 02:11 PM

Duke that was a good argument. I wanna ask you something,though. Would you play a Stripmine that did not tap for mana? That is the situation that arises when the opponent leaves a fetchland for fear of stifle. While I cant say with complete conviction that it makes the card a definite winner, I have been playing it that way amd I am comfortable with the scenario that insues. Of course the card has all its other uses as well, but the mana disruption is what I gather you mean when you say people play around it. And that also does not include people who do not play around it.

kicks_422

04-18-2009, 09:16 PM

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-19-2009, 05:14 AM

If your opponent plays around Stifle, in effect making him slow down his tempo by not cracking fetchlands right away, waiting for you to tap all your mana before he cracks one, etc., then Stifle has done its job, right? And that's even without casting it. You might not even have it in your hand, or deck, for that matter.

That's exactly what I've found to be true so far. Since everyone has it ingrained in their mind to play around Stifle the moment they see the first Cursecatcher hit the table, you virtually get 3 or 4 free slots in your deck by not playing Stifle. I don't know though, there are some match-ups where bluffing a Stifle doesn't do any good, such as against Storm or something using EE or Pernicious Deed... But it's kinda hard to find space for Stifle in the sideboard, I've found so far. Needle does the job against EE and Deed, but not against Storm... So in the end, I may go back to using it and secretly praying for a Force of Will to pitch it to when it's sitting dead in my hand.... Ugh. Talk about a Catch 22. :laugh:

EDIT: Another piece of anti-Storm tech with a wide range of generalized uses is Thorn of Amethyst, now that I think about it. I could see running 2 Thorn in the sideboard and just completely going without Stifle if I determine that all Stifle is essential for is Storm hate and I still need more defense against Storm than 4 Cursecat, 4 Daze, 4 FoW...

The more I think about it though, I've noticed that my Merfolk decks I've been testing, be they Riptide Laboratory variants or Minamo variants, gain a better ability to deal damage to the opponent by not using Stifle. Being able to add three creatures, Ponder, Jitte, Kira, what-have-you... it's a pretty significant gain. Especially when everyone's fear of the bogieman does about 50% of Stifle's job for you anyways.

Phoenix Ignition

04-19-2009, 12:56 PM

Duke, what exactly are you arguing?

Let's say people start believing you and no one runs stifles anymore. Well, it's going to start being pretty obvious to people who initially played around stifles that we aren't packing them anymore.

What you're doing is riding a wave of virtual card advantage by being able to pretend that you have a card that you don't even play. Sure, it may make people play differently because they see a Merfolk and an untapped island.

But what you're suggesting is ridiculous. When people stop playing stifle it isn't still going to be played around. Your virtual advantage is then completely lost, and people will be able to play as if you don't have it.

So really, if you don't want to run stifle then you should encourage others to run it, to give your virtual card advantage actual virtual advantage. Convincing others on this subject is completely against your point, because if enough people believe you, then your point is invalid.

Stifle is still worth running, regardless of other people knowing about it. I've played against this deck enough times to know that even though the merfolk player needs to keep an island up the whole time, the stifle on my fetchland is game breaking. Sure it's 1 land per side that is unusable, and 1 card in the merfolk player's hand, but in a lot of situations it is much better for the merfolk player because there is a vial in play, more creatures in play, or mutavaults in play on their side. Keeping some decks mana screwed, or just slowing them down a few turns is by far enough to win games.

Not to mention Deeds, EE, vial triggers, equipment hijinks, and so many other things that largely affect the game. Being able to be pitched for FoW is a huge huge bonus. Your Vizzerdrix comment is stupid. Vizzerdrix doesn't shut down some decks when played for 1 mana. Stifle is a card that is very good against a few decks, good against most other decks, and only bad against 3 decks I can think of in the format (Burn, TA, and Dragon Stompy). Against these matchups, it pitches easily to FoW, which is good since against these decks you usually don't want to pitch your folks. Don't try strawman fallacies like "PiTcH tO fOrCe = GoOd?!? LeTs PlAy ViZzErDrIx!!!!"

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-19-2009, 07:38 PM

First of all, I don't see anything that was so unduly inappropriate about my previous post that it merited deletion. Phoenix has a history of flaming my ideas on this thread, so I think it's well within my rights to say it wouldn't feel like home without him trying to make me look like an a-hole.

@Phoenix Ignition: First of all, your argument that I should tell everyone to keep playing Stifle if I want to gain virtual card advantage by not playing it, although in a way being logically sound, is kind of ridiculous. I don't give people advice for my own Machiavellian goals, I do it to provide a point of view and hopefully be helpful. I wouldn't intentionally tell people to do something just so I can gain an advantage by doing the opposite. Perhaps it's merely the fact that I don't think this is such a well-visited forum of discussion that one random guy's suggestions about the Merfolk deck are going to single-handedly change the meta-game overnight.

On the individual merits of Stifle: I'm by no means saying it's a bad card. What I'm saying is that I feel that its inclusion is not as "set in stone" as some folks tout it as being, and that there are potential gains to be made by not running it. I've put in my time playing this deck with three Stifles in the main, so don't act like I have no prior experience to base my opinions on. Please don't condescend to me based on your supposed mastery of this deck; I play it a lot too, and I win more matches than I lose. I think we both know basically what we're doing here, and it's a little insulting for you to try to tear me down because my logic doesn't match yours.

All the arguments you make about the times you actually do need Stifle in-hand, if you will notice, I addressed preemptively in the post you were responding to. You know, when I said "I don't know though, there are some match-ups where bluffing a Stifle doesn't do any good, such as against Storm or something using EE or Pernicious Deed... But it's kinda hard to find space for Stifle in the sideboard, I've found so far. Needle does the job against EE and Deed, but not against Storm..." Go ahead and read what I've written before you point your finger at me about the things I've supposedly been too thick-headed to pay attention to.

***This is really not wholly intended to sound crabby, but I am quite a little tired of all the derision that's been heaped on me by you, Phoenix, regarding this deck's development over the past few months.

Why don't we both look at this thread as a forum for discussion without all the attitude, rather than a playground for us to patrol, telling people we don't like to shut up?

On the "Vizzerdrix straw man": This was obviously not a serious suggestion. What I was illustrating is that the argument that Stifle pitches to Force of Will is somewhat of a straw man, and not at all the correct reason to validate its inclusion in the deck. I realize that Stifle is much much better than Vizzerdrix... That's precisely why I chose Vizzerdrix as my example, because it's so obviously a sub-par card. This was intentionally meant to be an argument that anyone could see as ironic; I was making a "stupid" argument, as you call it, so that folks could see that Stifle's ability to pitch to Force of Will is a non-issue as long as its slot is taken by another blue card. In a deck that is mono-blue and runs about 6-8 artifacts in the main, there are plenty of cards that will pitch to Force of Will, so it's not very relevant that Stifle can also pitch to FoW.

For the record, let me say this one more time: Stifle is a very powerful card, and you can get a lot of good use out of it. However, I find it slightly awkward to hold one blue open for it during the early game, as there is usually something I would rather spend my mana on than to hopefully deny my opponent of a fetch-land activation. Its role versus Storm is irreplaceable; however there are some cards that may be considered for the sideboard that would minimize the loss of Stifle in this match-up. Also, against many of the things that Stifle shuts down, Pithing Needle is a potential inclusion in the sideboard. Although the ability to counter triggered abilities is what puts Stifle a step ahead of the curve, Pithing Needle will handle about 80% of the things you wanted Stifle for in the first place.

At the moment I feel that the use of Stifle boils down to personal play style, opinion, and one's predictions about the meta-game they're going into. There may be a 'correct' consensus to be reached, and it may in fact be to include Stifle and to ignore the arguments I've made for going without it. In the end, I'm not to be the judge of this, except for myself. You, as the reader, and as the player and deck designer, must ultimately make this decision.

Phoenix Ignition

04-19-2009, 11:51 PM

You never responded to my post. I love how powerful it feels when you automatically go into Super Saiyan 3 to try to respond to something I write. Makes me happy.

Your 2 reasons for taking out Stifle are 1, that you can pretend you have it since most merfolk players do, and 2, the extra other cards might be better.

I merely said your argument for 1 is completely ridiculous. You have absolutely no response to that, which is good, since if you did it would be completely illogical.

Your argument for 2 is one of those "well I'm sure we might possibly have a small chance at probably almost maybe finding a different card for the slot." That's cool, I'm sure there are plenty of cards that you could use in this slot, but you fail to mention any specific card that you recommend. I gave my reasons for using Stifle, but here's one more. If people have mass removal for your merfolks, adding in more creatures is most of the time not going to help. Having a card that helps you along your 1. Tempo, 2. Mana screwing, 3. protecting from mass removal, and 4. stopping a lot of random other things is going to do more than a creature in the 3 slot.

And obviously obviously the deck you run is based off of what you decide to run.

AcidFiend

04-20-2009, 12:55 AM

[I]Stifle's ability to pitch to Force of Will is a non-issue as long as its slot is taken by another blue card

Completely agree. I also think its best if people can agree to disagree, there may well be different lists that are viable here (shocking I know..).

I'm fairly new to this style of Merfolk, having played an old fish deck with Winter Orb years ago. While Stifle and Standstill can be powerful, I'm testing a list without either, though I think the latter has a better chance of creeping in than the former.

The early game I want to spend laying threats and countering, and rarely have a mana for stifle. Standstill is a little more complicated, its great when you have better board position, but does nothing when you don't. I just found too often it was too even to play Standstill, with lots of decks I'd test running Wastelands/Manlands, and didn't want to leave the result to chance.

Thats said, Spellstutter Sprite (which took Standstills spot) is great in some matchups, horrible in others, so we'll see.

Volt

04-20-2009, 01:12 AM

Unfortunately, I think the best version of this deck plays Goyf instead of Stifle.

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-20-2009, 07:04 AM

Your 2 reasons for taking out Stifle are 1, that you can pretend you have it since most merfolk players do, and 2, the extra other cards might be better.

You misunderstand me on the first point. My argument is not that I can pretend that I have Stifle, but that my opponents tend to assume I do. The difference is that my pretending to have it essentially does nothing except perhaps makes me keep a mana open when I might not want to. My opponents' assumption changes their style of play though, tending to make them more prudent in my favor and wasting time that they need not waste.

About the second point you raise, I didn't suggest specific replacements because obviously they are various and depend on meta choices and what one feels to be lacking over-all in the deck. Some cards I've tried, with various levels of success, are Vedalken Shackles, Ponder, Vendilion Clique, Spellstutter Sprite (generally putting the two Faeries in the same decks, naturally), Umezawa's Jitte, Kira, more Wake Thrashers, Tidal Warrior, etc. The thing is, I wouldn't necessarily advocate any one of these above all the others. If I really felt I had a perfectly tuned list of this deck, I would share what information I deemed appropriate without blowing my cover, and then go win some matches with it until I felt it was no longer perfectly tuned. The fact that I don't feel my lists to be 100% tight yet is the reason that I'm still here discussing the deck, and also the reason that I don't advocate any particular replacement to Stifle. I just advocate people feeling free to put Stifle in the sideboard, or eschew it entirely, and I wanted to hear opinions from both the people who do and don't think this is a good idea.

*So basically, we're swell here. Let's continue to debate stuff. :cool:

EDIT:

Unfortunately, I think the best version of this deck plays Goyf instead of Stifle.
@Volt: Man, I hope that's not true. One of the main reasons I went with this deck is that I didn't see it hopping on the "splash Goyf for winnnzuRz" band-wagon any time soon... Although I can see Krosan Grip, and maybe even Trygon Predator, being mighty appealing in some matches, now that you mention Green. Alas, my scholar's budget does not support the Goyf splash, although I may test it.

Skeggi

04-20-2009, 07:23 AM

Splashing green opens up to Submerge. A card which is becoming more and more prevalent in my meta.

Piceli89

04-20-2009, 07:28 AM

Skeggi

04-20-2009, 07:52 AM

Why the hell is people still saying " let's splash this deck with green for goyfs"? if you stare at the Merfolk decks which made top8 on Dekcheck, you'll notice how 1/10 of the decks run tarmogoyf, while the remaining 9/10 decks are going monoU. Let the result speak for themselves alone. Merfolk can easily be a good deck without that piece of crap, the inclusion of which would provide few benefits and way more weaknesses.
This is false argumentation: there are way more lists without Tarmogoyfs to begin with, so your numbers sketched a skewed picture.

Disclaimer: I do agree with the idea that Tarmogoyf doesn't belong in a Merfolk list.

ACMaverick

04-20-2009, 11:02 AM

Speaking of Tarmogoyf...I just came from a tournament this weekend and took 7th out of 46 people running a Merfolk list with Tarmogoyf main and Krosan Grip in the board. I've been playing Merfolk for a while now, and I really like the changes with green, moreso for Krosan Grip than Tarmogoyf. My only losses that day were to Goblins, once in the swiss and once in the finals (same deck). I find that the Tarmogoyfs give the deck a little more staying power if your opponent happens to resolve a fatty and you can't really deal with it, and the surprise factor of vialing in a Goyf without having any green mana on the table is also good. I know he isn't a Merfolk, but he is a pretty strong card. It's the same list as the person who got 13th at GP: Chicago, I forget his name.

As for stifle, I run it main, but it's usually the first thing I board out because I can find a better card in my sideboard for the matchup-it's a nice card to have in game 1 then take out for something better games 2 and 3.

Finn

04-21-2009, 03:23 PM

Volt....Volt....Volt....
What are we going to do with you kicking up the sand like this?

Seriously, you have to consider that the most successful Merfolk performance is the one with green. If you go that route, what becomes of the Relics? Do you swap out for Crypts? Do you play Brainstorm and bastardize more of the deck? Now you have to consider broadening the splash with extra fetchlands and perhaps a Tundra or two for STP. etc.

I dunno.

This is the sort of discussion that drives me nuts about Tarmo.

ACMaverick

04-21-2009, 05:39 PM

I still run Relic in the board, I just take out Goyf when I put that in. Maybe that's the wrong call, but it's been working for me thus far.

I'll admit, running goyf seems counterproductive in a tribal deck, but he's REALLY good, as is Krosan grip , at least for my meta (mostly counterbalance/dreadnought styled decks) which is why I like grip so much. Plus he gives you more resilience against other goyfs if you can't counter them (you play your own and prevent their goyf from racing your merfolk). It's really hard to come back from a turn two/turn three goyf racing your adepts and lords.

One of the appeals of the merfolk deck IMO is that it is easy to make on the cheap, but I just like the oomph the deck gets from goyf and grip. I wouldn't play brainstorm in this deck though-at that point I might as well add a third color and play thresh. We play dudes or vial turns 1-2, and attack, not set up for something more powerful. I can't really say that adding green is the better choice then going mono blue because the addition is better against some decks and worse against others. Adding a second color opens you up to stifle and wasteland being an issue but gives you resilience in other areas-it's up to you which you'd rather be exposed to.

AcidFiend

04-21-2009, 07:40 PM

I respect different builds, and Goyf is so strong its no doubt viable, but I won't be testing it for the following reasons:

-Staying Mono allows better use of Back to Basics which has been a house for me
-Goyf is too pricey
-I like having no reliance on my graveyard
-There's a certain satisfaction in beating expensive no-brainer cards like that

Ok so those reasons aren't that great. But I haven't had too many problems with opposing Goyfs either so far either:

-Wake Thresher + Lord(s) can out-muscle Goyf when attacking
-Faeries + Riptide Lab can chump block Goyf all day
-Faeries + Jitte can offset/kill Goyf
-I can counter Goyf (Daze / Force / Sprite + another Faerie/Mutavault)
-Relics in board shrink Goyfs

_erbs_

04-22-2009, 01:01 AM

Hello,
I've been playing this deck for a long time and tried different builds with it. So far this list has been the most sucessful.

Lands
2 Mutavalt
3 Wasteland
14 Island
19

Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Lord of Atlantis
3 Silvergill Adpet
1 Shapesharer
3 Inkfathom Infiltrator
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher
23

Spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle
3 Ponder
18

SB
2 Stifle
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Back to Basics
2 Control Magic
3 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

A Few Odd Balls....
1. Inkfathom Infiltrators - when i 1st suggested this i was blasted with comments that it was a crap. I suggest you try them out 1st.

2. Shapesharer - an outlet to pump wake thrasher. bash heads with tarmo, dreads, tombstalker, etc.

____________________________________________________________

I was really tempted to jump to a 2nd color be it green or white. (Tarmo or STP and disenchant effects), due to the fact that its so hard to face a fatty with no spot removal.

Merfolks has no evasion of some sort expect if your opponent controls an island or combo the tidal warrior + lord of atlantis but that doesn't happen too often. Here comes the inkfathom infiltrators which has, you can trade off damage with goys or other fatties with them and packed with jitte his awesome offensively... since you had done early damage from him finishing your opponent is much easier with them.

AcidFiend

04-22-2009, 01:08 AM

erbs: Evasion + Jitte is king, does the double blue ever cause you issues? Also which matchups do you bring Dreadnoughts in for?

elof

04-22-2009, 01:18 AM

Why only 3 Silvergill? I love that card and whouldn't cut it for the world. He is always my first play...

Phoenix Ignition

04-22-2009, 01:27 AM

1 of Shapesharer seems unnecessary, cutting wastelands to 3 and stifles to 2 while running 2 tidal warriors seems bad.

I've used Inkfathom's before, they really weren't worth the extra slots (and changes of mutavaults into islands). Ponder really isn't an excuse to cut Standstill. Your card advantage with merfolk having 4 silvergill and 4 standstill is just barely enough to get there most of the time, but to change 4 standstill to 3 ponder and take out a silvergill is just plain crazy.

As said before Wakethrasher and Jitte don't really need to both be there, I wouldn't use 2 huge beaters like that in the same deck since we need the aggressiveness, and you need more card advantage.

Dreadnaughts are against burn and sligh, like always.

Shawon

04-22-2009, 01:30 AM

Why only 3 Silvergill? I love that card and whouldn't cut it for the world. He is always my first play...
I actually think Silvergill is overrated. Yeah, it replaces itself, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a 2/1 for 2, which makes for a mediocre creature otherwise. Also, its cost is restrictive. This sometimes forces you to play Silvergill before your other Merfolk, otherwise you run the risk of keeping Silvergill as a dead card. This also gets worse when your 'other Merfolk' are
'other Silvergills'.

Silvergill is only amazing with Vial out (and decent with Reej out), but otherwise, I think it's overrated. Perhaps cutting it altogether is too hasty, but I think 4 Silvergill is way too much.

AcidFiend

04-22-2009, 01:58 AM

I actually think Silvergill is overrated. Yeah, it replaces itself, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a 2/1 for 2, which makes for a mediocre creature otherwise. Also, its cost is restrictive. This sometimes forces you to play Silvergill before your other Merfolk, otherwise you run the risk of keeping Silvergill as a dead card. This also gets worse when your 'other Merfolk' are
'other Silvergills'.

Silvergill is only amazing with Vial out (and decent with Reej out), but otherwise, I think it's overrated. Perhaps cutting it altogether is too hasty, but I think 4 Silvergill is way too much.

I've been running only 3 Silvergills and even then I find sometimes I can't cast it when I want to. Most of the time they're ok, but I'm not going up to 4 soon. Then again I'm running Faeries thats why I cut it back. The one toughness really sucks tho, even with a Lord out he can't survive Bob/Kird Ape/Shock effects.

As said before Wakethrasher and Jitte don't really need to both be there, I wouldn't use 2 huge beaters like that in the same deck since we need the aggressiveness, and you need more card advantage.

Both those cards have won games for me by themselves; having both increases your 'big threat' count. They are both best when attacking so I'm not sure what you define as 'aggressiveness'. Having a Jitte online can also net you advantage by offsetting burn/killing creatures.

Shawon

04-22-2009, 02:18 AM

I didn't know Inkfathom Infiltrator existed before erbs' post, but now that I know, I think Infiltrator is much better than Silvergill in the Jitte variants. Aside from the fact that Jitte'd Infiltrator lives to attack again (unlike Silvergill sometimes), you also avoiding the slowness of reattaching Jitte to your next beater.

_erbs_

04-22-2009, 04:05 AM

AcidFiend erbs: Evasion + Jitte is king, does the double blue ever cause you issues? Also which matchups do you bring Dreadnoughts in for?

Yes in my current mana configuration it sometimes did maybe i got unlucky but i wouldn't push the inkfathoms to 4 any time soon. I brought in the dreadnoughts against burn, mirror match, decks that i know has limited spot removal, etc.

1 of Shapesharer seems unnecessary, cutting wastelands to 3 and stifles to 2 while running 2 tidal warriors seems bad.

I've used Inkfathom's before, they really weren't worth the extra slots (and changes of mutavaults into islands). Ponder really isn't an excuse to cut Standstill. Your card advantage with merfolk having 4 silvergill and 4 standstill is just barely enough to get there most of the time, but to change 4 standstill to 3 ponder and take out a silvergill is just plain crazy.

As said before Wakethrasher and Jitte don't really need to both be there, I wouldn't use 2 huge beaters like that in the same deck since we need the aggressiveness, and you need more card advantage.

Dreadnaughts are against burn and sligh, like always.

Phoenix Ignition Yes the 1 shapesharer was just for kicks.., i needed a merfolk another merfolk with a decent ability.

As for the Standstill, i guess it will boil down to a players preference, yes without a doubt standstill is awesome but i use the ponder for its searching abilities and shuffle effect not for draw. Currently im okay with no draw effects.

For Wake Thrasher and Jitte, I want to have maximum threat as possible so i could have a chance in the damage race against fatties.

For Inkfathom i like the evasion it gives, especially in finishing off my opponent later on when im faced with fatties... it forces my opponent to kill it aswell when there life is begining to drop...

As for 2 stilfes 3 wasteland.., again it will boil down to a players preference im comfortable with 3 wastelands cause when im faced with a mono colored deck wastelands could give me more mana problems. As for the 2 stifles they are just precautions agains pernicious deeds or combos, etc. and its part of the dreadnought package..

elof Why only 3 Silvergill? I love that card and whouldn't cut it for the world. He is always my first play...

Like what the above posts had exprienced same as i, thats why they are only 3 in my list.

idraleo

04-22-2009, 05:48 AM

I' m testing a coupLe of Sage of Fables instead of Wake Trasher and it seems pretty good. Sometimes it works as 9th and 10th lord effect, and it is awesome combined with Vendillion and Riptide laboratory. I' m not sure i' m gonna play Jitte anymore, that' s because i probably want ever my mana open to did a Vendillion or Stifle or activate Laboratory. I thought it could be a better sideboard choice instead of a maindeck one.

Zwergenpunk

04-22-2009, 10:13 AM

Hey, I'm playing Merfolk also some time and the last list was that one:
creature [20]

4 Cursecatcher

4 Lord of Atlantis

4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Silvergill Adept

4 Spellstutter Sprite

instant [8]

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

enchantment [4]

4 Standstill

artifact [6]

4 Aether Vial

2 Umezawa's Jitte

land [22]

12 Island

4 Mutavault

3 Riptide Laboratory

3 Wasteland

The spellstutter Sprites are insane, also the Riptide Laboratory
I never wanted to play Stifle in the Maindeck...I even didn't want to bring it in from my sideboard, so I don't know why you guys are all playing that card...

Riptide Lab is soo good with Silvergil Adept and Aether Vial...you can draw soo many cards...whew thats amazing...
The only Problem is that you play so many lands but I don't know if you can cut Islands becaus the non basics you can't cut...

I won with that list 2 tournaments in a row in germany (110ppl and 40ppl)

whienot

04-22-2009, 01:30 PM

Zwergenpunk, what did your sideboard look like?

Nekrataal

04-23-2009, 04:10 AM

Which tournaments did you play in Germany?

bokepa

04-23-2009, 05:36 AM

Hey, I'm playing Merfolk also some time and the last list was that one:
creature [20]
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Spellstutter Sprite

instant [8]
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

enchantment [4]
4 Standstill

artifact [6]
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

land [22]
12 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Riptide Laboratory
3 Wasteland

The spellstutter Sprites are insane, also the Riptide Laboratory
I never wanted to play Stifle in the Maindeck...I even didn't want to bring it in from my sideboard, so I don't know why you guys are all playing that card...

Riptide Lab is soo good with Silvergil Adept and Aether Vial...you can draw soo many cards...whew thats amazing...
The only Problem is that you play so many lands but I don't know if you can cut Islands becaus the non basics you can't cut...

I won with that list 2 tournaments in a row in germany (110ppl and 40ppl)

I like this list, it' the same i run but i do
-1 Silvergill Adept
-1 Mutavault
+2 Selkie Hedge-Mage

Whats your sideboard? How you win goblins and burn? This are my worst MU.

My SB:
4 Stifle
3 BEB
2 Hydro
4 Relic of progenitus
2 Echoing Truth

elof

04-23-2009, 06:06 AM

In what matchups do you side in Stifle and in those matchups, whould needle be better?

Jeff Kruchkow

04-23-2009, 10:23 AM

In what matchups do you side in Stifle and in those matchups, whould needle be better?

Combo. and possibly stuff with deed. In which case stifle is better for versatility.

bokepa

04-23-2009, 10:34 AM

I side in stifle vs stormcombo, Ichorid, Standstill, Decks with 4+ colors.

Needle would be better vs decks with top but it does nothing to stop combo.

So i guess stifle is the best sideboard card. Also take in mind that stifle stops Enginyered Plague and Needle, wich are cards that are side in vs merfolk a lot.

Finn

04-23-2009, 10:42 AM

Ppl, Stifle is handy to have against storm combo, but you do not side it in for the matchup. You sure as hell don't put it in your sb just for storm.

You stop storm combo by killing the engine. That is, you have to prevent Ad Nauseum or similar card drawing cards from resolving. By the time Stifle becomes useful, the opponent has plenty of ways to prevent you from using it. Orim's Chant and Duress are the most obvious cards they use. And once that hits you Stifle is dead.

And bokepa, are you going to be Stifling that Standstill trigger. Lotsa luck with that.

bokepa

04-23-2009, 10:46 AM

Im not stifling standstill, im stifling mishras and cycles for soldiers or dragons returning to hand.

Obiously killing the engine is better, but still, stifle helps more than needle vs combo. You are making sure they can't go off without protection vs your counters AND your stifles. Its easier to duress you only the counters than the counters + the stilfe.

When i said standstill i was refering to the deck.

Shawon

04-23-2009, 10:51 AM

So i guess stifle is the best sideboard card. Also take in mind that stifle stops Enginyered Plague and Needle, wich are cards that are side in vs merfolk a lot.

Is that true? Both Plague and Needle are 'as it comes into play' effects. I thought Stifle only stops the 'when it comes into play' effects.

bokepa

04-23-2009, 11:01 AM

Ops, sorry thats true. My fault.

Still, I think stilfe is better and more versatile, except with a meta full of tops and recurring deeds and explosives, and even there it acts as a great tempo card.

Shawon

04-23-2009, 11:11 AM

Jeff Kruchkow

04-23-2009, 11:19 AM

Stifle is good vs combo that isn't ANT since TES can still go ETW and vs. belcher it lets you stifle ETW or Belcher both of which are very very good.
Stifle can also buy tempo if you are playing a faster version of the folk.
And finally, stifling an EE or deed wins games.

gamegeek2

04-23-2009, 12:01 PM

Has anybody tested Disrupt? Seems like it could generate some CA while attacking the basics of the opponent's plan. Perfect answer to discard as well.

sauce

04-23-2009, 12:05 PM

Has anybody tested Disrupt? Seems like it could generate some CA while attacking the basics of the opponent's plan. Perfect answer to discard as well.

divert is even better.

bokepa

04-23-2009, 12:23 PM

I don't understand the hype around Spellstutter Sprite in this deck. Yeah, it's a counterspell with legs, but what do you typically counter with it? Is it common to be able to counter something with 3 cc, or is Sprite usually used to counter 1-2 ccs?

Try it, the sprite is very versatile:

It normally counter's things with 1cc and 2cc, but that's more than 50% of the format

Also has evasion, leave you with a creature to carry jitte even with e.plague on board...and finally you can do broken things like:

Vial it in to counter a spell, block with it, return it to hand with laboratory to save it from dieing, cast it again to counter another spell, attack in your turn for 1, return it to hand if you need to continue countering.

CleverPetriDish

04-23-2009, 02:28 PM

I am pretty sure Disrupt and Divert were both tried and eventually discarded.

Berzerked

04-23-2009, 04:09 PM

In that list with Sprites + Lab, and no Stifles, wouldn't Mishra's Factory almost always be more useful than those Wastelands?
8 manlands with Standstill and Vial seems pretty cool.

Shawon

04-23-2009, 04:39 PM

Mishra's Factory doesn't have any Merfolk/Faerie synergies.

Berzerked

04-23-2009, 04:57 PM

Ya, nor does Wasteland...

That's my point. Both have no tribal synergy, and without Stifle, Wasteland is kind of lack-luster. At least Factory has synergy with Standstill/Vial. If I'm going to have a card that potentially does absolutely nothing, I'd rather it at least swing and block.

Piceli89

04-23-2009, 05:07 PM

DukeDemonKn1ght

04-23-2009, 06:18 PM

So guys, apart from your Faeries-Folk implications , i'm giving you a question to work with: do you think that, if Lore/Wise-sacle Serpent will make the cut in the new BANT lists, it will give some problems to us? I mean, the latest tendency of this new "white threshold" is to strenghtening the creature side by focusing less and less on the graveyard, hence losing the original concept of threshold. Rhox War Monk, the new Snake -and maybe Sower, an inclusion caused by the successes of the CounterTop lists from Chicago- are surely more slower than the good ol' Mongeese, but they are way more dangerous for our deck, since they don't rely on the yard anymore, so i think Relic is gonna becoming quite useless against this archetype. Ok, you can say " it still eats goyf", but goyf being the only yard-dependant creature wouldn't be exactly an optimal reason to side in relics.
The War Monk, especially, can hurt very much, because of the lifelink issue, which means it makes later aggro-strategies by us way less valid. And the fact that it can be cast quickly by the fucking Noble Hierarch (for which it would be good to remove it, if blue had only a decent removal other than Pongify..) is surely not a good thing.
Basically, BANT is jumping towards a higher density of cc-3 fatties, keeping only Goyf from the previous level. While this can be a good factor because they slow their gameplan into a more controllish approach if they don't pull off Hierarchs in the first turns for accelerations, i really think the inclusion of such creatures must be kept under control. I've done some testings so far and , as i epected, Lord of Atlantis i still the win factor for us, but really, if Monk lands early, sustaning a damage race against him+other dudes becomes hard.
And a turn 4 6/6 may hurt, too, even if it lacks evasion.
The real point of my argument is: shall we take a look back to the sideboard options, if BANT becomes predominant, at this point? I'm gonna keeping a look to the forgotten Mind Harness for that, since it can steal -even for few turns- a fattie and break the match, while Threads now loses power with those new inclusions.
P.S. Of course i tested with the Pure merfolk list, i don't even bother with that weakened hybrid with blue flying bitches.

Honestly, Piceli, if Bant becomes super predominant, I fear that Mind Harness may not be enough. I haven't tested against the Legacy list, although I've played against Bant Aggro in Extended, and I could see how their creature choices could be extremely troublesome for us. (By the way, have you seen Dauntless Escort? Eww...)

Mind Harness is decent, but the problem with all the 'control magic' available to Merfolk is that it's extremely limited, because we're hindered by our low curve. I'm assuming you've also dropped the Vedalken Shackles; I've found I can never get them to work when I need them most.

You pose an interesting question though, so here's my best attempt to answer it: If Bant (or a deck like it, with lots of midrange fatties and lifegain) becomes a popular archetype, I think Merfolk essentially has two options:
1.) Find a way to bump the curve up to be able to play four mana spells. Sower of Temptation fits exactly with our strategy, even though it's not in our 'tribe.' (I know, "eww... four mana spells.")
2.) Find a way to splash a color, probably white, to give this deck what it's always lacked: some decent fucking removal. (I know, "eww... vulnerability to Stifle/ non-basic hate/ we can't run Back to Basics as effectively.")

**While clearly, neither of these are very appealing options, if the meta changes, we have to be ready to change with it, or get left by the way-side. However, I do want to editorialize this with the fact that I haven't really seen a rise in people playing the Bant deck myself (although I make this statement based on testing on MWS, so it's not exactly scientific...)